So, the Iron Hands advances include three levels of the Flesh is weak. Yum yum.

However, they still require Mechanicus implants and as such is still only useful for the Techmarines?

Iron Hands count as having mechanicus implants for the purpose of gaining talents. Unless they are tech-marines they won't count as actually having those implants, but they can take The Flesh Is Weak no problem.

First Founding, p13: "Iron Hands Space Marines count as possessing Mechanicus Implants for the purposes of satisfying the prerequisites of a Talent (but not for wargear or any other purpose)."

Hello Brothers

sorry to bump an old thread but if this is here i didnt want to start a new one.

Ok im having some issues wrapping my head around the iron hands and flesh is weak stuff. we have a shiney new Iron Hands assault marine joining our group for the upcoming game and I helped make his character but im totally in the dark on this whole thing so ill say how im interpretting it and any corrections or confirmations would be greatly appreciated.

so because were a few games ahead of him the GM ruled that he was allowed extra xp at creation allowing him for 3850xp (roughly half of what me and another person have recieved thus far) anyway he chose to purchase "The Flesh is Weak" 1-3, Price of victory (starts with 2 best-craftsmanship cybernetics) he chose legs for the bonus sprint feat and bonus to leaping and jumping (being assault), and he chose signature wargear for a right arm and the bonus strength to his attacks.

totalling both legs and a cybernetic on both arms.

does the flesh is weak add 3 points to his TB for all those locations or is it just for 1 location of his choosing?

does the hand replace enough of the arm to grant the bonus to that arm if he chooses that one?

does having only his extremeties replaced give him the machine bonuses (immune to vacuum, mind influencing psychic effects, etc)?

if he wanted to go cybernetic body/head how would he go about doing all that?

(he likes the idea of being a brain encased in a ceramite shell as referenced on p.8 of FF)

thank you in advance

You don't need signature wargear to have a cybernetic arm, for one thing.

Flesh is Weak 3 gives him persistent and permanent AP 3 to all parts of his body.

The actual implants (legs and an arm) improve his effective TB by 2 on those particular parts of his body.

I would not allow The Flesh Is Weak to give both AP and a TB bonus under the cybernetics rules, because that's really dumb. It's just an AP bonus.

Arguably the hand should not give the TB bonus to the whole arm, since it's just a hand. Although arguably it might - metal filaments running inside the living arm to conenct the hand to nerves or whatever. This is totally a GM call.

Replacing extremities should not give any total immunity to vacuum - just for those extremities and not the rest of the body. I would never allow a Techmarine to be immune to mind-affecting psychic effects unless he completely removed his brain, at which point, he's no longer alive and not a PC. Even the most inorganic Magos has a bit of gray matter in there, and that makes him susceptible to mind-affecting effects. Any workaround of that is BS - the brain encased in a shell might have the extra TB to the head, but it won't make his actual brain any more protected against psychic powers.

Kshatriya said:

What about Tech Marines who have their weak gray matter flesh stored away in a jar back on the ship, while it is connected to some kind of interface that allows it to interact with the Tech-Marine Body?

how does one go about just buying cybernetic parts?

Ares60 said:

I had my players pay for the Signature Wargear talent if they wanted to purposely replace pieces of themselves with machinery. You're losing a bit of yourself (XP Cost) when you trade in your arm for a mechanical one

This has only come up with our Iron Hands Techmarine, though. Everyone else is happy with their fleshy pieces and are sad to see them go if a Genestealer slices one off.

lol im definatly with them on this one… their attached for a reason

Hpred said:

That doesn't exist in any fluff ever and I would not allow it for a PC, though perhaps as a plot hook of some sort or something created by Chaos in a way similar to the ritual that created Rubric Marines.

What you're talking about is some serious Dark Age of Technology stuff, far beyond any current Imperial capability, that probably the highest-ranking Magos on Mars itself covets and would love to have and understand. Not something just sitting around available to someone who is a Space Marine first, Tech-Adept second, even to a Forge-Master. Even Dreadnoughts require direct interface after all.

Ares60 said:

The RAW is that you just spend req on it before one mission and have it permanently. This is often referred to as a very broken system because it's just asking for abuse.

Involuntary replacement (e.g. arm severing) might be appropriate as a one-time req request to get the character back into fighting prime.

Voluntary replacement, which by the fluff is ONLY appropriate for Iron Hands and Techmarines…I'd say Elite Advance Signature Wargear is an elegant way to handle it and keep a real, permanent cost on it. 1000 XP a pop or something.

Kshatriya said:

The RAW is you may only get bionics if you loose a vital body part in a previous mission, unless you have specific rules allowing acquisition in another manner (i.e. techmarines). The Req cost is an after-the-fact penalty applied to your next mission to pay for the new arm.

Right, and the req cost is wholly insufficient in the long-term seeing as you don't just take off a cybernetic arm after a successful mission. You have it for good and don't pay req to have it for future missions.

The GM decided to allow that player to buy Signature Wargear for cybernetics whenever he had the xp for it but he has to meet the rank requirement and has to purchase the signature wargear appropriate to the requisition of the cybernetic.

example:

initiate is allowed common so 500xp signature wargear can get his other bionic arm at common craftsmanship being only 15 requisiton but when he goes up to respected if he wants to make it exceptional (using the weapon requisition value multiplier on p.140 of the core rulebook) it would cost 22.5 so 23 and he would need to purchase signature wargear (master) in order to upgrade it.

I would be interested to hear thoughts on this way of doing it.

it seems wierd that someone could purchase a cybernetic with mission requisiton but i digress

thank you all for the information it was most helpful

Since I saw Tim was back in charge of questions I sent this one up to him to get it finally answered. Didn't post it with my earlier post.

Without further ado:

"The rules for bionic replacements are not intended to be purchased with requisition unless extenuating circumstances arise that make the replacements necessary. Of course, in the end the Game Master has final say on what is appropriate for their campaign.

Thanks for your question,

Jim"

So no for req purchasing bionics unless you are missing that limb or organ according to the rules. As the GM you can allow other avenues of acquisition, and your signature wargear method is acceptable. Though I'd be careful with it. Remember, GMs are the guys who control the whole environment, including what options your players may purchase. Limiting or expanding what they have access whenever you want, especially if it keeps the game fun. (Super tough player characters who can't be hurt by even the strongest enemies isn't that fun, no challenge.)

Fluff wise voluntary replacement is totally inappropriate except for Techmarines and Iron Hands. That is a good basic constraint. Additional constraints on TMs as IHs are also appropriate though they should be less restrictive.

Does that apply to the MIU? The bonus to BS for an exceptional model would be nice for a tactical marine

The description of the Devastator specialty talks about something a lot like the MIU as well.

Ares60 said:

Does what apply to the MIU?

Kshatriya said:

The restriction on voluntary augmetic replacement. I would say no, since an MIU is an augmetic that adds a new function to a warrior that he couldn't ever get elsewhere [with an augmetic.] Bionic replacements are just that, replacements. Something that replicates the function and shape of a body part that already exists.

Probably not, but MIUs have long been a thing closely associated with the Mechanicus, and I think a lot of chapters would prefer some additional helmet system than replacing the gift of their enhanced flesh with metal.

Ares60 said:

Rules as written, as long as you are an Iron Hand or Techmarine, you simply requisition them and keep them forever. Apart from that, a Space Marine has to lose a part of their body to gain an Implant.

The rule may seem odd/bias/broken, but the whole point of the Techmarine is to make them into a Tank. Hence the Flesh is Weak and the Artificer Armour.

Ares60 said:

First, only a Techmarine or an Iron Hand can get the MIU because it doesn't replace anything.

So you have an Iron Hand Tactical Marine and want an MIU? That's fine. What are you connecting the MIU to that will grant the BS bonus?

You need Arm Weapon Mounting for 10 Req which will allow you to connect the MIU to a Pistol or Grenade Launcher, other weapons don't normally have MIU interfaces. I rarely get to use the BS bonus.