Let's say I have Preternaural Speed, which lets me make a Lightning Attack as a Half Action. I Aim for a Half Action, giving me a +10 on my next attack. Does that apply to all 3 of the Lightning Attacks, or just to the first one.

Also, MotX Carnifexes. They have Two-Weapon Wielder (the only Tyranids to have this) and Swift Attack and Multiple Arms. I assume this applies to the claws. Does this mean that Carnifexes (unlike any other Tyranid), can make a Multiple Attack with the "off claw" and three attacks with the other claw (2 for Swift Attack + 1 for Multiple Arms) at a -10 because they have Ambidextrous?

Seems odd that no other creatures with Natural Weapons seem to have this Talent...

bogi_khaosa said:

I think that's how it should work.

Other nids needs this.

If you take an aim action and then use a swift or lightning attack action the bonus would apply to the first attack made only. This is because the Deathwatch Swift and Lightnig attack actions are specific actions allowing a character to make multiple attacks in place of a normal standard attack.

If you happen to be of the mindset to use the Black Crusade rules (some are), and the perternatural and aim actions function close enough to how they function in Deathwatch, then the bonus from aim would apply to all possible attacks made using swift and lightning. This is because Black Crusade has swift and lightning functioning like semi and full-auto attacks. You make a single attack and get a number of hits based upon your degrees of success.

With the exception of projectile wielding creatures, Guards, Zoans, and rippers, all Tyranids have multiple arms.

The following Tyranids have multiple arms AND Lightning attack, giving them the same number of attacks as the carnifex example but WITHOUT the TWW penalty.
Dagon Overlord (also has TWW for up to 5 attacks a turn)
Hive Tyrant
Lictor
Genestealer
Ravener
Tyranid Warrior Prime

I think thats more than enough melee ability for the Tyranids.

Doesn't the Multiple Arms Trait already include attacking with the "offhand"? Which "hand" is "off" if you have four of them? I'm not sure what functional purpose this Trait serves; if the Carnifex actually had two different kinds of melee weapons, then I could see it allowing it to attack with both in the same round, but it doesn't.

PS. The Trygon also has Two-Weapon Wielder. The Tyranid Prime does not, although it is listed as having two boneswords, so I assume this is an omission.

herichimo said:

No such thing.

Multiple Arms gives a character a second attack normally or adds +1 attack if using Swift attack or lightning attack. It has nothing to do with TWW or off-hand.

If a character does not have swift attack but has multiple arms it has 2 attacks.
If a character has multiple arms and swift attack it has 3 attacks.
If a character has multiple arms, swift attack, and TWW then it has 3 attacks normally but can use a fourth with a -20 (-10 if ambi) penalty to all 4 attacks.

Two Weapon Weilder allows the user to attack with two seperate weapons a turn. One weapon (generally the main hand unless ambi) gets the character's full number of attacks and the extra attack from TWW is made with the other weapon. If a creature did not have Two Weapon Wielder and had more than a single weapon it would have to choose which to use when making normal attacks.

The Tyranid Prime has two boneswords. Meaning it has two boneswords. Just because a character has two identical melee weapons does not mean it should also have TWW. A Prime has 4 attacks base with no penalties. TWW would only allow it to get a 5th attack with either a bonesword or a non-bonesword equipped arm on top of the 4 attacks with a bonesword, but then have all 5 attacks suffer a penalty. 4 attacks with no penalties is good enough in almost any situation. Thats better than any assault marine could hope for (yes furious assault gives another attack but you get a penalty, I'm talking about attacks without penalties here).

Having two identical weapons does not gain as great a benefit from TWW as having two differing weapons. You get an additional attack with penalties to every attack you made but if armed with a different weapon one of your attacks can be with that other weapon. So a power sword/power fist armed space marine with TWW can make one attack with his power weapon, or one attack with his power weapon and one attack with his power fist (at -10 for both).

My list included ONLY Tyranids with Lightning attack and multiple arms. These Tyranids have the same number of possible attacks base, without penalties, as a Carnifex has with penalties from TWW. All other Tyranids do not have Lightning attack and Multiple Arms, although this does not imply they do not have Multiple Arms, Swift Attack, and TWW.

herichimo said:

But without TWW, that second bonesword is only for show (or if the first one gets taken away or the arm is somehow immobilized). There is no point in having a second weapon; it gets 4 attacks regardless (all with a bonesword, despite it having extra attacks from multiple arms, some of which are not holding boneswords).

Considering the amount of editiorial screw-ups (the Lictor is Hulking and Enormous at the same time, genestealers don't have Concealment, which MUST be an omission; attacks don't do the damage they should be doing), I am inclined to think that the TWW Talent just didn't get printed, but was intended.

bogi_khaosa said:

I think you can attack with both hands without possessing TWW. You just do so at a steep penalty.

bogi_khaosa said:

That argument is a false premise. A Prime has two boneswords because it has two boneswords. It carries one in each of two hands, thus two boneswords. It doesn't have two boneswords "because" it has TWW. Conversely it shouldn't "deffinately have" TWW simply because it has two boneswords. There's also the lack of the ambidextrous talent which other Tyranids with TWW posses (although not all Tyranids possess this talent). Which lends weight against TWW.

As the options for the bonesword are either 1: 2 boneswords, or 2: 1 Bonesword and 1 Lash whip. The specific number is more likely in place to keep unscrupulous GMs from giving wierd weapon configurations to the Primes. If you want to give your Prime a bonesword you either take 2 or you also take a lash whip, no mixing with scything or rending claws (i.e 2 scything, 1 rending, and 1 bonesword).

I'd also sumise you could disarm a bonesword from a Prime. Since the bonesword isn't a natural weapon it is not immune to disarm or similar abilities.

Kshatriya is correct according to extrapolations from the Dark Heresy errata and/or possibly some e-mailed answers, 'anyone' can use two weapon fighting. Those without TWW trying to use two weapon fighting suffer an additional -10 WS penalty. Since the Prime lacks the ambidextrous talent he would suffer a -30 WS to all attacks made in this situation.

Without mixing and matching rules DeathWatch doesn't allow two weapon attacks without the Two-Weapon Wielder.

1.) You may only use a single attack action during your turn.

2.) Each Standard Attack permits a single attack for a half-action .

3.) Swift Attack and Lightning Strike allow more then one attack for the one weapon at the cost of a full-action . ( Multiple Attack Action)

Also note to use the another weapon you are still required to have Two-Weapon Wielder as noted under Swift Attack and Lightning Strike

4.) Two-Weapon Wielder allows both weapons to be used as a single attack action at the cost of being a full-action .

5.) Multiple Arms grants the use of the Multiple Attacks Action at the cost of a full-action for two attacks without having Swift Attack / Lightning Strike and grants an additional attack if you have Swift / Lightning Strike.

The advantage of the naked Multiple Arms trait is the two attacks aren't weapon dependent.

So the following plays out.

1.) No Talents or Traits, limited to a single Standard Attack at a half-action .

2.) Swift Attack grants two attacks with a single weapon as a Multiple Attacks Action at a full-action .

3.) Lightning Strike grants three attacks with a single weapon as a Multiple Attacks Action at a full-action .

4.) Two-Weapon Wielder grants an attack with each hand as a Multiple Attacks Action at a full-action .

5.) Multiple Arm trait grants two attacks with either hand as a Multiple Attacks Action at a full-action .

6.) Swift Attack with Two-Weapon Wielder grants two Attacks with main weapon and a single off-hand attack as a Multiple Attacks Action at a full-action .

7.) Lightning Attack with Two-Weapon Wielder grants three Attacks with main weapon and a single off-hand attack as a Multiple Attacks Action at a full-action.

8.) Multiple Arm Trait with either Swift Attack or Lightning Strike grant three attacks straight up as a Multiple Attacks Action at a full-action .

9.) Assuming the above in combination with Two-Weapon Wielder would grant four attacks. ( However, its not noted under Multiple Arm Trait.)

herichimo said:

What? Where is this?

All of that was in the main book for Death Watch, but you need to read the descriptions of the relevant talents, traits and actions to get it.

Also seem to remember seeing someone post most of the same info on this board at some point as well.

If your going to use rules from other books its best to pick one with the most rules you like and stick with it rather then maxing and matching as it can cause a lot of issues without creating your own manual.

Bait said:

The book says "if the character has the Two-Weapon Wielder Talent, he may use the Multiple Attacks combat option to attack with both weapons, but each suffers a -20 penalty..." I don't see anything about being able to do so without TWW. Is this buried in the errata somewhere?

Don't think it really matters whether you can or not really. It's not a great option to go from 2 - 3 or even 3 - 4 attacks by taking a big hit on your first two, unless the target is particularly vulnerable.

What's really amusing is that as written it's easier to give your genetically perfect killing machine an extra pair of arms than it is to let them use the sword you've given them for a left hand.

Few questions spring to mind though:

Do natural weapons need TWW at all?

Is there a FWW (4 weapon weilder talent) that Mr Swarmlord's supposed to have? Or does TWW give the guy +2 off hand attacks?

Face Eater said:

If they don't, there's no point in the Carnifex having the trait.

Finally figured out how all that works within Death Watch.

The partial exception is having the Multiple Arms trait which grants two straight up attacks as a Multiple Attack action, while the other combinations require Two-Weapon Wielder and the use of Multiple Attack option as per Talent descriptions for Swift Attack and Lightning Strike.

Standard Attack action is limited to single attack for a half-action.

bogi_khaosa said:

I believe this is brought up in the Dark Heresy Errata.

Multiple threads have discussed this many times so I did not go into depth about it.

Don't pay too much head to Bait's posts. While nothing he posted is incorrect per say, much of it is just a re-hash of the basic principles we are already aware of concerning the discussion. By re-listing all those options, actions, and talents he's only made the place more confusing.

If you want to take anything from his posts it should be this: The Deathwatch main rulebook does not have options allowing characters without TWW from using two weapon fighting. The Dark Heresy Errata (not Deathwatch) states any character without TWW may use two weapon fighting at an additional -10 to normal two weapon fighting penalties. You may, of course, adopt or house rule the Dark Heresy Errata into your Deathwatch games if you so desire.

Bogi_khaosa: Yes If a creature has multiple arms he must have TWW to use two weapon fighting. On the other hand, a creature with multiple arms "may use the Multiple Attacks action to gain two attacks on its turn." [sic] (DW rulebook pg. 133) So as long as the creature uses the same weapon it may make an extra attack with the Multiple Attack action. If the creature wishes to attack with two different weapons (i.e. scything talons and bonesword) it would need TWW.

herichimo said:

Where is it confusing? It has all the interactions listed correctly.

herichimo said:

Multiple-Arms is the exception to this as per Multiple-Attack action pg.242, "provided he has the Swift Attack
or Lightning Attack talent, or is wielding a weapon in his
secondary hand."

And Multiple Arm pg.133 "Finally, the creature may use the Multiple Attack action to
gain two attacks on its turn."

The key being the Multiple Attack action is only allowed when you have Swift Attack, Lightning Strike or Multiple-Arms. ( Dual-Shot and Dual Strike don't use the Multiple Attack action, they use a full-action and there own special rules.)

Two-Weapon Wielder is handled internal to each Talent in the case of Swift Attack and Lightning Strike. But is absent in the case of Multiple Arms which is a trait. ( Which is why I acknowledge it as speculation.)

herichimo said:

This is where things got confusing as the OP was asking about Death Watch rules not pulling from an outside source. ( Which was last published in 2009 before Death Watch was published in 2010.)

But I do appreciate you actually stating.

herichimo said:

It gets confusing as listing all of those options wasn't in response to any particular question. Your info wasn't incorrect, its just it really wasn't needed as the conversation wasn't a question of how many attacks a character gets or how he uses multiple attacks. It was about why all Tyranids did not have TWW and why TWW was not necissary in most accounts. Adding a whole big list like that can imply, and lead others to believing, a different question was asked which doesn't appear in previous posts.

As for Multiple Arms: The rule allows characters with multiple arms to use the multiple attacks without needing swift or lightning attack. So, if you have Multiple Arms you may use multiple attacks action even if you lack swift. The rule goes on to state, if you have swift or lightning attack it increases the number of attacks you may make by +1. So, swift attack+multiple arms has 3 attacks, Lightning attack+multiple arms has 4 attacks, multiple arms by itself is 2 attacks.

Yes we are talking about Deathwatch. But, many in the deathwatch community have opted to use the other rules. Many believe the game systems are so closely related the intent of one system has an equal intent in another. Thus the option is there and as it was pertinent to the OP the option was presented.