Until now no termie-questions arrised during our game simply because my style focused on SF- and Recon-Missions and not frontal assaults, so there was no need for Terminators and there specific rules, but now we want do do some space hulking with DW (kind of more detailed tabletop and I have the chance to play myself, no GMing for me here, hurray).

Only big-guns-big-tyranids-shooting-and-slashing-number-crunching-no-narrative-content-one-shot-killing-spree staring at Rank4!

But now I've got my first termie-quetsions (maybe more to come).

What about charging Terminators?

Termies couldn't run, but it doesn't make any sense that someone who charges an enemy isn't able to run the same distance in the same time without attacking an opponent. Of course he won't get the -20 to BS to shoot at him like in the Run Action, but he could profit from the Hard Target Talent, a big advantage when you can't take any Dodge Actions and he can move a little further.

Any experience with that?

What exactly is your question. I don't understand what you're asking.

Hard Target works for a charge move.

Whether a character can make a charge move without making an attack is not specified. The charge combat action and charge move appear two seperate things. Whether this means you may make a charge move or you can declare a charge action or can only move your charge move when using a charge action needs clarification.

I can see it both ways but lean toward the limitation you may only make a charge move when making a charge action. If only because there is no movement action for a charge move in structured time. As opposed to the movement actions (and rules) for a half, full, and run move.

As you say making a charge move without making an attack is not covered by the rules, mainly because no one would opt to only cover the distance the Charge Action allows him to when he can use the Run Action (both are Full Actions) if he don't want to attack someone.

My point is that Terminators can't take the Run Action at all so the longest distance they could move is Charge, but by RAW this only works when they make an meele attack. So the question is if Terminators should be allowed to take a Charge Action without attacking and if not, shouldn't they be denied the ability to Charge at all, because moving fast (not running) and attacking should take more time and concentration than moving fast (not running) alone.

It isn't possible because it's not covered by the rules should be no argument when it obviously makes no sense in this case.

I can't be the first to have noticed this lack of rulesets, because a lot of people here have already played with Terminator Armour (for me it's the first time) but I've never read something about this problem.

It's must be possible to take a Charge Move without a melee attack or else Bolter Assault would not work as written.

bogi_khaosa said:

That's the exception to the rule. I thought that the baseline rule is that Charge movement must be followed by a melee attack (the Charge Action) unless you're applying an exception like Bolter Assault. Therefore the Charge Movement rate is only ever used if you're performing a Charge Attack or something equivalent.

As to Hard Target, meh, if you're comfortable with it, let Termies dodge with that Agi penalty applying. Makes sense. If vehicles and starships and Dreadnoughts can dodge, I'd think termies can dodge too.

Kshatriya said:

That sounds sensible, but it still leaves the question why you couldn't move the same distance in the same time as in a Charge Action when you are not even attacking. I guess this was simply overlooked because hampering Terminators by stripping them of the Run Action was the easiest solution (like the fire selector) but the designers didn't think this any further.

Kshatriya said:

In Price of Hubris somewhere, genestealers are refered to as spending the first round Charging but not yet getting into melee range.

I think the idea is that you can only Run (and so get the -20 to be hit benefit) if you are moving further than Charge.

bogi_khaosa said:

This is exactly my thought but I can't find any game mechanic to support this but this is logical because if you can move even further than Charge and get a -20 to be hit benefit who would take Charge without the Attack, so there are no rules for this situation.

They should have approached Terminators the same way as Dreadnoughts but this would have taken too much space in the Corebook. First Founding would have been a perfect opportunity to fix things for Terminators instead we got a lot of new weapons which forceed us to play by the optional nerfed weapon stats while every adversary is shooting at us with powerful weapons using the old stats. Maybe someday we will see some 1st Company book with more detailed rules for Terminators, but until then Terminators seem to be unplayable without any houserules.

IIRC MotX and supplements released after it use errata rules for weapons, and the errata itself gave new stats for all enemy weapons for the core (Tau and Tyranids being most important since Chaos generally uses human weapons). So not sure where your notion of "PCs use new stats and enemies don't" comes from.

Kshatriya said:

Sadly, MotX uses nerfed (=better) weapon stats in some places and the old ones in others.

Kshatriya said:

Nearly all Adversaries and NPC's in MoX, First Founding, The Achillus Assault and The Jericho Reach use old wepon stats!

The only exception I know of are the Kroot Shaper's Pulse Rifle in MoX, although there are no ROF stats and the Stigmatus Infantry's Autogun from the Achillus Assault. You could argue that the new Noise Marines weapons from MoX are based on the optional stats but their ROF seems to descend from the old stats.

But I don't want this thread to went the wrong way, because I'm more concerned with my Terminator issues.

I've only written this to express my opinion about neglecting useful content in favour of strategically placed rules which will force all to play DW the way one writer wants them to despite the official view which still seems to favour the old rules for publications. Maybe I'm making this up, but it's much easier to miss these details for 2 weapon tables than for all Adversaries and NPC stats and on top of that the stats for new SM-weapons would influence the descision whether to play with the optional stats or not a little bit more. Which Player wants to miss new goodies in favour of clinging to some old stats? Don't get me wrong, the optional stats have their justification from some point of view, but I really hate to be manipulated.

Need to read the Charge Action description for a better understanding of how it works.

The Charge Action use Charge Movement not Running Movement so doesn't get anything besides whats listed in the Charge Action description, which is why Terminators can charge but not run. ( They can get a bit of steam going but not flat out run.)

Bolter Assault is rather poorly written, basically its allowing movement equal to your Charge movement ( As the term "Charge Move" not Charge Action is used.) followed up with a standard attack with bolter pistol / bolter/ storm bolter or grenade.

Hard Target requires the Run Action as Charge Movement is tied to the Charge Action as in the description of Charge Action. ( With noted exceptions such as Bolter Assault which grants the use of Charge Movement.)

bogi_khaosa said:

Your only running if your using the run action as the charge action uses charge movement.

Sounds like a narrative description of the action instead.

Bait said:

The description of Hard Target states that it works with Charge. Or do you mean that if the character Charges into combat (the only possibility), somebody firing into the combat or someone in melee with it shooting a pistol takes the -20?

Failed to break it down properly and a slight mistake on Hard Target.

My comments on Hard Target was to do with interaction with Bolter Assault, which uses a Charge Movement ( Not action) with a Standard attack with bolter pistol / Bolter / Storm bolter or Grenade as a free action on the Declaring characters turn. ( In my own little head space.)

And I didn't finish the edit on Hard Target before posting, which is Hard target working for both Run Action and Charge Action but not simply for Charge Movement.

Further, the specific description of the Genestealers charging into combat without getting into range is a narrative description as the Charge Action does require the attack being part of the charge action. ( Sounds better being "Charges into combat" rather then "Runs into combat range" but can be confusing.)

As for Termies losing dodge, they do have a non-overload Force Field to compensate.

Bait said:

BUT IIRC they are 50 meters when they begin whatever kind of movement they are doing, which is within their Run Move, which wouldn't require them spending a round before getting into combat range, which the text says they do since the characters get a round to shoot at them. Also, the description of Run says "move a distance equal to your Run movement," which if taken literally means that you have to move a distance of, say, if you have an AB of 4, 24 meters if you Run, which requires them moving past the target if they were to Run. Man these rules are poorly worded sometimes.

Assuming that my memory of the passage is correct. (?)

Which is why its a Narrative description rather then mechanics driven. ( Helps to also check to see if errata is available as well.)

The narrative description allows for more dramatic encounters without getting bogged by mechanics, but needs to be used sparingly.

Bait said:

Alas, the issue with making a charge move without making the attack in a combat scenario is, there is no charge move action. There is only the Charge action, and it states an attack is made at the end of the move.

No combat/structured time action exists allowing a character to make a charge move that is not part of the Charge action.

When you think about it, why would a SM in TDA be able to move their bulk faster if there is an enemy sitting in front of them than if there is open ground? but then what would be the point of the Full Move?

I can see making an exception for TDA that you could move your 'Charge Move' and opponents would get the bonus to hit you in melee as if you had been running, but not the penalty for ranged (unless you had hard target) if for some reason you needed to make that move without attacking at the end of it. With Hard Target it would work out like running at half speed without the talent. It avoids the stupidness of "I 'Charge' down the hall and attack the wall" kind of thing that could happen when both player and GM get so strick about RAW.

Well look at it this way (Just being the devil's advocate here, have to look at all ends of an argument).

A half move is a half action and a full move is a full action.

Running is also a full action. Which indicates you can run over double the speed of a full action in the same time. But, when doing so you get some modifiers as you are running all out.

The charge action is essentially a full tilt run at an enemy, you are in effect attempting to close the ground as quickly as possible. It exists to be able to cover as much ground (and a little more) as a full move and still pull off an attack (since you cannot full move and attack). Except for quick characters the 4 meter minimum range would negate using charge when an enemy is within your half move, forcing you to use half move-standard attack in these situations. Now as your character is running quickly (and somewhat recklesly) to close with the target we can assume he's moving faster than a full move (which would be a more cautious move, keeping an eye out for enemies and the like). And as its an attack action the 4 meter straight move at the end makes sense as well, you build up all that momentum into the attack if theres something in your way at the end its all wasted. The question you need to answer is: should characters get a method to move more than a full move, but not a run, as a full action which gives no modifiers at all?

So where running would be your character covering a much ground as he litterally can, a charge is only a rush towards an enemy allowing an attack normally denied for moving that far. It makes sense you wouldn't be able to charge move, since if you really wished to move that far you can run. Since the terminator is limited from running it also makes sense a character can not make a charge move simply to cover ground unless theres an enemy to charge. Terminator suits are fairly slow after all.

Side note: I think terminator armour rules need a bit tweaking and updating personnaly. For instance: I don't think the -20 agility does and/or should effect agility bonus for movement. But thats just me.

herichimo said:

Quite the opposite! When you can charge an enemy you can run the same distance, not by RAW, but by logic. Remember running allows you to cover DOUBLE the distance of a Charge Action. You can cover less distance on a Charge because you will have to fully concentrate on the attack so no penalty to being attacked at meele and the bonus to do a meele attack yourself, but you aren't running fast enough to warrant a bonus against ranged attacks.

The only explanation why there are no rules for moving with the Charge rate is nobody would do so as long as he has the option to run. Sadly Termies can't run and that's the only bug. Even Dreadnoughts can run(sort of) and doge although with a big penalty which makes dodging very ineffective.

But it's a little bit tricky to translate Dreadnaught movement to Terminator movement, because the first uses vehicle rules which only have 2 rates, while the latter needs 4 rates (only 3 by RAW but this is the problem and we have tried to fix it).

A Dreadnaught Full Move Action is twice its Tactical Speed which means 14m for most, so a Terminator should also be able to run rougly 14m maybe a little bit less because his strides are shorter. We have come up with this last weekend:

A Terminator gets a -30 penalty to Agility but his Agilty can never drop below 20. So an Agility Bonus of 2 would be the default value for most SMs but there is NO +1 Movement added for Hulking so you only get a basic Movement Rate of 2. With this you can do Half Moves 2, Full Moves 4, Charge 8 and Run 12 which makes a Termie a little bit slower than a Dreadnaught as desired and even slower than an average human. Of course SMs with an unmodified Agility Bonus of 6 or 7 perform better but they should because they invested a lot XP in high characteristics.

Now we come to Skills and Talents. As Termies are smaller than Dreadnaughts they should get a little less penalties on skills:

They already get -30 Penalty to Concealment and Silent Move because of the Armour rules, but they should also get -30 to Climb, -30 to Dodge, -30 to Shadowing and -30 to Swim but should be able to use all Talents incl. Hard Target and Sprint. So only the best SM are able to succesfully dodge. We weren't really sure if Termies could swim at all because of their weight but I think Grey Knights did this with Terminator Armor in one Novel so we allowed it assuming all SM Power Armour have some air filled space in it which helps to stay afloat.

We think this rules will work flawless with all other existing rules and won't beef up Terminators to much in fact they were nerfed on most parts.

There isn't a charge move option because there is the run action. That part you got right.

Charging covers more ground than a full move and yet allows you to melee. But less than a run.

Compared to running, which has some disadvantages, currently there are no disadvantages for a "charge move". If allowed (which I doubt it would be) it would be a full action that allows you to cover more distance than a full action full move without any disadvantages, and you can still smack someone at the end of it.

Do you see the problem here? IF A CHARGE MOVE EXISTED (so you guys know the list below is referencing this), There would be 3 options for movement when using a full actions.

1 Full move: double agi distance, no penalties, full action

2 Charge move: Triple agi distance, no penalties, full action, can use it to melee

3 Run: 6 x agi (iirc), penalties, full action

All of a sudden full move would never be used any more. Who would want to when the so called charge move is better in every respects. No penalties, same amount of action, more distance, and allows a melee swing at the end. It would change some of the dynanaism of the game. No more thinking, just use a charge move every turn.

Concerning charge move compared to half/full: Half and full move (as I listed earlier) are cautious. Your checking corners using tactical movement. A charge is you picking out a target and running at it without consideration of your environment, you're not running full tilt cause you are still focused on one target with intent to pulp, but you are moving faster than normal tactical movement.

Dreadnaughts use vehicle movement and are themselves quite slow (for a vehicle).

Terminator agility penalty is only -20 not -30.

Where do you get the no +1 movement from hulking? That is NOT a power armour bonus. It is a bonus from being hulking. ALL hulking creatures gain a +1 to movement, those in books generally already have this figured into their stats I believe. Specifically, a creature gains +1 to its agility bonus for the purposes of movement only for every size catagory above average.

I think you missed that he was stating his group's proposed house rule. I almost missed it myself.

There are a couple of downsides to a Charge as movement. The requirement for the last part to be in a straight line (not very big I know) and under Movement and Environment p.206 Agility tests to not fall down in bad terrain.

herichimo said:

I think the -20 penalty for being attacked in meele is more than offset by the -20 penalty to be shot at. Who is stupid enough to run a path which will likely cross an enemy so he gets profits from the meele penalty? No one would use Charge Movement instead of Run Movement except for a handful of specific situations.

As Nathiel mentioned I was posting our new houserules for Terminators. Sorry I haven't make this clear enough.

Kain McDogal said:

Does the +20 melee bonus apply to the guy that you just charged when he tries to hit you?

bogi_khaosa said:

I was refering to the Run Movement this time. You get a -20 penalty to be shot at and in the unlikely event some enemy crosses your path he will get +20 to WS. I think these 2 cancel each other out. So Run is superior to Charge if you want to only move without attacking someone.

On a Charge Attack you get +20 to WS and the enemy non.

But all this doesn't matter because:

By RAW Termise can't take the Run Action.

By RAW a Termie's Half, Full and Charge Movement is higher than that of the average human.

By RAW Termies can't dodge but heavier Dreadnaughts can.

By RAW Termies can use the Climb and Swim Skill even better than a normal SM because of the higher strength.

This is illogical!

Denying them Run was a very shortsighted rule which leaves many questions open, but this is fixed by our new house rule, which maybe sound more complicated at first but is a better representation of cumbersome Terminators.