I looked in the rules and searched the current topics but couldn't find an answer...

If Someone has a Black Raven attatchment out and someone else has the white raven out, is it summer or winter, or neither?

the situation you discribe will never happen. When a white or black raven it discards all other raven attachements from play.

SO if player 1 plasy a black raven in their marshalling it becomse summer. Then in their marshalling player 2 (who gets a +1 gold bonus) plays their White raven the bacl raben is discarded and it is now winter.

Thank you. I was unaware of the full text.

Well, actually, while it cannot happen in the LCG environment, it is possible to create the situation is the CCG environment.

And there is a technicality, too. Say that you play the Black Raven while your opponent has a White Raven in play. Because the Black Raven says "Attach Black Raven to your House card and discard all other Raven attachments from play," your opponent's White Raven (and the effect making it Winter) is not long for this world. And because of its immunity, there is no way to save it from being discarded (there are convoluted ways to do it in the CCG environment). There is, however, a very brief time when the Black Raven is in play and the White Raven is "on its way out." During that time, both the Black and White Ravens are technically in play at the same time. Of course, the only thing you could do in that time is play a Response to Black Raven coming into play or the White Raven being discarded, so it hardly matters.

Anyway, in answer to the (mostly) philosophical question, if ever a Black and White Raven are in play at the same time, it would indeed be both Summer and Winter at the same time. All "if it is Summer" and "if it is Winter" effects and abilities would be valid, even the ones on the same cards. If there is ever a conflict where two passive effects couldn't happen at the same time because of this (i.e., "If it is WInter, kneel this card when an event is played. If it is Summer, stand this card when an event is played."), the First Player chooses the order in which they resolve.

jeeez. i feel like i just got done taking a first year law school exam........

Lars said:

Don't moribund (a word I carefully avoided) scenarios always feel that way?

moribund makes my head go to mush.

Speaking of, Can you succesfully kill Benjen Stark, shuffle the dead piles back into the decks, and then use retreat on Benjen to put him back to your hand?

I've gotten 3 answers from my nights watch, but it was hilarious listening to him try to figure out the timing of it with moribund.

I'd be interested to hear the end result.

The short answer is, in fact, yes.

The order of things is:

a) Benjen dies for whatever reason, usually in Step 3 of the action window. He becomes "moribund:dead pile." Because he is moribund, he stays on the table until all Responses are played.

b) His passive effect activates and all players shuffle their dead piles into their decks. Note that the moribund Benjen (and any characters killed at the same time as him) are not physically in the dead pile yet and are thus not shuffled into the deck with the rest of the actual dead pile.

c) Now it's time for Responses. You play Retreat. Retreat is a replacement effect that specifically changes the moribund state. It doesn't physically take anything out of the dead pile, nor does it actually remove anything from play (that would be illegal on a character that is already moribund). Rather, it redirects a unique character that has been killed from being headed to the dead pile to being headed to your hand. That is, it changes a unique character that is "moribund:dead pile" to "moribund:hand." The character (in this case, Benjen) still counts as "killed," so you could play other Responses to him being killed after playing Retreat, he's just headed back to your hand instead of the (now empty) dead pile.

d) When there are no more Responses, you remove moribund cards from the table and put them in the appropriate out-of-play area. Now they are physically in those places and can be affected by things that specifically alter the dead pile, hand, deck, whatever.

(This chain of events happens even if Benjen is killed as the result of a passive or a Response; only the step names change.)

See? Moribund is no trouble if you like a good story.

Personally, I've found that after about three years or so Moribound doesn't become a problem anymore because you finally understand how it works.

yeah that was the conclusion that we came to.

Where is this action sequence located??

Tian of House Zi said:

Remember that every action window, whether opened by a player or the flow of the game, goes through the following steps:

Step #1: Initiate the action (includes paying costs and choosing targets)

Step #2: Save/Cancel Responses to initiating the action.

Step #3: Resolve the action (whatever you paid for in #1 officially happens here)

Step #4: Passive effects (anything that happens passively because of something that took place in Steps 1-3 happen here)

Step #5: Responses (any Response effect a player wants to use in Response to anything that took place in Steps 1-4, or earlier in Step 5, happen here)

Step #6: End (everyone is done, moribund cards are removed from the table)

If Benjen is killed for military claim, the sequence from the earlier post happens in Steps 3 - 5 of the "Resolve the Challenge" Framework (or "game") action window for that military challenge.