My group and I have gone back and forth on this and I know I've seen it somewhere, but I cannot find it. I read once that Power Armor confers a -20 penalty to Silent Move and Concealment tests. If anyone has any knowledge on this and where it's located at, I'd be really grateful.

Armour p. 160 under AP: "Any armour that provides 7 or more APs (including Astartes power armour) inflicts a -30 penalty on the wearers Concealment and Silent Move Tests."

and under Size:p134 Hulking gives a further -10 to concealment.

The Black Carapace negates the bonus they would normaly get to shoot the Hulking Space marine, but it's still hard to hide and you do get the +1 move from size as well.

Personally I think it goes a little too far. I guess you can get to -10 with skill advances but I'd like stealth to be more viable of a PC option.

Thanks a million for your help. I knew I had read it somewhere!

Kshatriya said:

How do you mean? You're in 10 feet of whirring and clicking ceramite, I'm not sure how you'd delicately sneak past a checkpoint. And let's be honest, if it was anything less than -30 characters would be doing just that on a regular basis.

Charmander said:

I agree wholeheartedly. The reason I asked this question in the first place was because of two reasons: 1) I knew it'd eventually come into play in my campaign and 2) Without knowing these penalties and being able to apply them correctly, what benefit do players of the Raven Guard chapter really get (aside from just having made them downright ridiculously easy to sneak up on anyone)?

You know you can give your players the option to also figth in other types of armour.

So tell your players that if they want to go "stealth mode" they can choose a Scout armour, or a Caparace.

But my guess is that they will forget about stealth pretty soon.

Charmander said:

I would assume that a size modifier is already included in the -30 for Astartes PA.

Alex

Kshatriya said:

I think it's just fine. It gives people plenty of reason to take Scout Armour (of either type), as well as gives the Raven Guard a chance to shine a bit in their own way, through the Chapter exclusive Talent that negates the -30 penalties (concensus is, not from Hulking though).

ak-73 said:

That would make sense if it weren't for the fact that the Hulking penalty applies only to Concealment. Which means the penalties for Power Armour are -20 and -30 with Hulking factored out.

With that in mind, it seems more like the two penalties are seperate, and meant to be added together.

Probably, I consider the size modifier (btw) a general modifier though - giving (depending on circumstances) a Hulking creature a bonus to intimidation, a malus to shadowing, a bonus to the person trying to find/follow tracks of a creature of that size.

Alex

Blood Pact said:

Correct

Any armor (not just power armor) with ap greater than 7 gives a -30 to silent move and concealment tests. Representing the noise the large bulky armor makes make and its large size and unnatural shape and the difficulty of getting it to "blend in" to its surroundings.This penalty is irrespective of the actual size of the armor. If your character was a squat shaped guy only 2/3 the size of a normal human wearing power armor, he'd get -30 to his tests, even though he's only average size in power armor.

The -10 to concealment due to being size Hulking is similar. Any character hulking or larger would get a penalty based on size. Space marines who are not wearing their power armor do not have the -10 to concealment as they are not Hulking outside of their armor.

Two completely different penalties applied for different reasons that do in fact stack together.

The hulking size penalty is negated by the Black Carapace.

Bait said:

"A Space marine in power armour is Hulking. This increases his base Movement by 1; however, the grace afforded by his Black Carapace negates the modifier enemies would otherwise have to attack him. See Page 134 for the full effects of Size. He still suffers the usual penalties to Concealment and Silent Move for being heavily armoured."

This reads as there is no penalty to Concealment for SM for being Hulking because of their Black Carapace otherwise it would not be "He STILL suffers" but "He ALSO suffers" or something like that. On the other hand although one word can mean very important things to one person for someone else (maybe the writer) it's only a case of bad wording.

As I've written once this one needs an official rule clarification!

Kain McDogal said:

There's the answer right there.

It does not say it negates any other effect gained for being Hulking other than enemy attack modifiers.

So your enemies do not gain +10 to hit you with ranged weapons. But you are still Hulking and therefore still suffer a -10 to concealment tests.

herichimo said:

It says he STILL suffers the usual penalties to Concealment and Silent Move for being heavily armoured, not for being Hulking. The question is if there was something left out concerning the penalty to Concealment for being Hulking is negated by the Black Carapace so that the "still" would make sense or if it's only bad wording and it should read "also"?

I really don't know which possibilty it is because it could mean both and the only other game mechanic reference for the Black Carapace under Space marine Abilities isn't of much help either. So the only fact we get is for the complete Hulking Trait, but we don't know for sure how much this is influenced by the Black Carapace.

I think the best way is to ask for an official answer and I hope I'll get some.

Kain McDogal said:

Seems pretty clear to me, they say it just allows to ignore the hit bonus and give a page number for the full effects which means they apply.

Blood Pact said:

That's a fan consensus, yes?

Curious how it cam to that consensus. All negating is too good? I'd almost think it's easier to learn to compensate for your increased size than to compensate for bulky, noisy armor

Kshatriya said:

Not thought of that before, but now you mention it I guess with all the skill in the world being really big is always just going to be easier to spot and harder to hide.

Its not really about compensating for your size.

Its easy to hide small things its hard to hide big things. A space marine in power armor is a big thing. Which makes it harder to hide than something of average size.

herichimo said:

We're playing a game where we pretend to be an eight foot tall, bio-engineered machine of ultimate destruction, wearing inpenetrable powered armour and bearing guns that no mortal man could lift.

Quite clearly, we're all compensating for size a little!

*runs and hides*

professor_kylan said:

*Puts down the heavy flamer, and unstraps the servo harness*

I don't know what you're talking about.