I just had a chat with a friend yesterday about 'fast' vs 'slow' weapons .... many actions actually benefit from getting extra recharge counters from utalizing slow weapons ... and since 'Fast' is supposed to be an advantage ... how would people feel about allowing a character utalizing a 'fast' weapon to deduct OR add a recharge token??

Boehm said:

It would not be game breaking I think. I see no problems with it.

But as far as I know attacks seldom benifit from extra recharge tokens (and if I recall correctly you put fewer tokens on an action when using the fast weapon, i.e. attacks), I can't think of any attacks right now where you would want extra recharge. Do you have an example of an attack that would benifit from extra recharge? Furthermore you do not have to remove recharge tokens when using a fast weapon, you could just put the normal number of recharge onto the card.

But again, if there are any attacks that benifit from extra tokens your the add or deduct rule you propose would probably not break the game. Also, in my games the GM decides if extra tokens should be added when using slow weapons, so the slow special ability will never benifit the user.

k7e9 said:

He's referring to ongoing actions. I simply rule that the slow trait has no effect on ongoing actions (which I think is in one of the books anyway, but can't find it). Advantage of slow gone. The chamberlains career ability lets you add more recharge tokens and giving this ability to fast weapons would render the chamberlain career ability pointless.

well, No ... not just ongoing actions ...there are several cards which benefits from total number of other cards of that type in play, which means that if you can make them recharge slower ...you will have more cards or recharge tokens on those cards ... in play.

Boehm said:

Yes, but it's a minor benefit and if you really want to create a combat style around that it's fine. But all the actions that you DO want to recharge fast will not and those are still the majority. Even actions with a recharge of 0 will have a recharge of 1. Plus if you get a condition that adds more recharge tokens on cards as well it adds up.

But what are the cards that you think benefit from this. The Bright mage has one, but a slow weapon won't help him in any way. If you're referring to the swordmaster then quite a few of his cards have the ongoing trait. The swordmaster cards require a sword or great sword and that's not a slow weapon, so there is no way for him to get any benefit when using the sword master cards. The diestro cards that also benefit from having more cards down, require a fencing weapon and that's a fast weapon.

A wardancer can benefit from this if he's using a flail or morning star, but that's it. And all his cards will recharge slower and that is not just a benefit. His cards have a fairly slow recharge in the first place so the benefit will be very minor and in special circumstances.

So three wardancer cards, that already have recharge rates of around 4 can get a slight benefit from using a morning star, but then playing a culturally disturbed wardancer flailing about with his morning star will be more of a joke than effective

It's very few cards that will benefit from this and the benefit isn't one sided as all other cards will recharge slower as well. I doubt the overall effect will be very beneficial, but it's nice that you can use those weapons with some cards to a good effect.

The morning star is a great weapon though as it adds more tokens to defence cards used and has a damage of 6.

That said I don't see the connection between the slow quality and the idea that the fast quality should let you add more tokens to cards. Having that ability would unbalance fast weapons, especially with the diestro style and all ongoing cards. There is one way to get the ability. Complete the chamberlain career.

And fast IS a BIG advantage. It means you can use all the cards with a recharge of 2 every round... twice as fast. It's a big advantage and you get no disadvantage at all since it's an option. No one is forcing you to use the boon to make a card recharge faster if you want to keep it on the table longer.

Gallows said:

Im not saying fast isnt or cant be very very good .... Im just saying that for some combinations of cards I find it a bit of a straight jacket that you get ' pushed' into using a slow weapon ... wardancer & witch hunter in particular benefit from using a slow weapon ...particularly a flail since they also have some good crit options... - I dont have a problem with certain weapons being good for certain builds - I just find it bit much when you feel like your are getting straight jacketed due to sooo much of the mechanic being dependign on having 'slow' recharge ...

ie. most of the witchhunter cards really arent particularly amazing on their own (mostly due to "forcing" u into being good both at Ag-balistic skill & S-weapon skill)... what makes them decent ....is the action (wahts the name now?? - verdict of "something"?) where they do bonus damage = total number of recharge counters on itselt and other witch hunter cards --> which lends itselt then that using a slow weapon, and assuming one other melee attack before utalizing this adds a +2 damage compared to using a regular speed weapon...

Another option you have is to just forget that the Morning Star is a Morning Star. The same way you have hand weapons and great weapons covering many different sort of weapons, in my games I have what I call hand-and-a-half weapons which are descrived by the morning star weapon stats and qualities.

If you have problems in your head justifying the extra recharging token on parry and block active defence cards because the weapon "wraps around the shield", just justify it in another way. May be the "morning star" of the Wardancer is a wood elf hunting spear that is so difficult to block and so dangerous to parry that defenders do it only when they really see a clear opportunity.

Boehm said:

I see what you're asking. You don't like using a slow weapon, but want both the benefit of the fast quality and slow quality in the same weapon. Well... they split it up for a reason. Balance. There is no way it's a good idea. It would remove the reason for using a slow weapon in the first place and make fast weapons much to good.

I don't see what's wrong with using a morning star. If you are a ranged character you are forced to use a bow for some cards. It's just the way it is.

But no one is forcing you to use a slow weapon. It can be a slight benefit yes, but you're blowing the benefit way out of proportions. Yes you can get two extra damage for that one attack, but most likely it's +2 damage during the whole fight. Using the morning star alone gives more than that since it's 6 damage. Make three attacks and it's +3 damage.

Why not just use a mornin star then? I've never seen anyone use it in our sessions. The reason is that slow is more of a problem than benefit I think, because the raw stats of the weapon are great... but the slow quality has kept people from using it.

You just have to pick. Do you want the benefit of a fast weapon or do you want to use a slow weapon for the slight advantage? You just can't have both at the same time... it may fit your style, but it's not balanced.

Just because something may seem like a good idea for a certain build or card doesn't mean it's a good idea in the big scheme of things or in terms of balance. I am sure that troll slayer could find a way to explain blocking with his weapon and it would be a good idea for that career... but it's one of the limitations of the troll slayer. That you can't use the block reaction. Tailoring the rules and house ruling to suit a particular card or build is generally just a very bad idea.

dont misunderstand me ... Im sure I can make my character work just fine ... I guess my point was just that slow is supposed to be a disadvantage right and fast an advantage ...but in half the cases I dont see it as such ...

Boehm said:

Fast is always an advantage and never a disadvantage.

Slow isn't an advantage for half the cards. Slow can give you a slight benefit for 3 wardancer cards (but in reality a slow weapon would destroy the wardancer fighting potential... see below) and one witch hunter card. That's four cards out of 80+ cards. That's 5% at most.

Then the advantage of the wardancer cards is really thin, because they have the recharge of 3, 3, 4 and 6. This means it's very easy to get ALL wardancer cards down and do max damage. You play it like this with a FAST weapon:

round 1: Whirling death (4)

Round 2: Whirling death (3), Stooping hawk (3)

Round 3: Whirling death (2), Stooping hawk (2), Orions Gambol (3)

Round 4: 3 dancer cards down, play Tempest fury(5 - fast) (removing 3 tokens from the other cards is no issue) for full effect.

Round 5: Whirling death

Round 6. Stooping hawk

Round 7: Orions Gambol (remove one recharge token from tempest fury by the boon effect on orions gamble)

Round 8: Tempest fury

IF you were to add one recharge token to all of them you would severely limit your ability to keep this cycle going, thus using a slow weapon, would screw with the recharge, so you would miss out on a round. In the end your damage would be lower and you would gain absolutely nothing. The above cycle would NOT be possible with a slow weapon and for the above to work and a wardancer to be most effective you need a FAST weapon and not a slow. A wardancer is dependant on getting that sigmars comet on orions gambol, a slow weapon does nothing for him. If he doesn't get that sigmars comet however he can't change to the other stance however. That's where having a seer in the party is nice or simply use the wardancer career ability to turn the cards on a crit come in handy.

You may see cards where having recharge tokens on them is a bonus because you want many cards down. BUT you don't need a slow weapon for that and in fact a slow weapon would ruin the build as I demonstrated above.

You have only two cards that directly benefit from having many recharge tokens on cards. One is a swordmaster card that requires a sword, which is never a slow weapon.

That leaves us with ONE witch hunter card that can benefit from this, and I am quite sure if you don't use fortune points to remove tokens from them when using a slow weapon, that +2 damage you can get from that card won't make up for the slower recharge rate, resulting in a slower cycle. The cards of WFRP are well designed and the way they work together means that small changes can mess up the system. This is a good example. It's not always obvious, but if you examine systems thourougly, then things aren't as black and white as they may seem on the surface.

That said you have several options for removing/adding tokens

1. Chamberlain career ability

2. Boon effects on the card

3. Duelist speed (diestro enhance card) - Lets you add/remove up to three tokens from one card

I think what you're looking for is the Diestro Enhance card

CHecking my books I didn't remember the chamberlain career ability right... it's only for social actions.

That leaves you with the diestro enhance card... a very good card and well worth the advance.

Gallows said:

I seem to not recall what it does ... could u post the details of the action card? ...pretty please

Enhance cards lets you remove a white, blue and yellow die. You play it as an enhance to another action you play:

Reckless side:

-1 white = Add or remove 1 recharge token from one of your recharging actions.

-1 blue = Add or remove 2 recharge tokens from one of your recharging actions.

- 1 yellow = The attack gains +1 damage. It also gains +1 critical if both a white and a blue die has been removed from the dice pool.

Conservative side:

-1 white = If you deal 1 or more criticals, draw an extra critical and discard 1 of your choice.

-1 blue = Reduce this attacks critical rating by one to a minimum of 1.

-1 yellow = The attack gains +1 pierce, and +1 damage per critical wound inflicted.

It can be used to the effect you're looking for... having more recharge counters on your cards for final judgment. It can also be used to very quickly recharge one of your cards, defense too if need be. It's a very flexible card and truly awesome for a fencing character or someone relying on tokens for damage. It's perfect for a witch hunter and works so great with those cards. The swordmaster can't use it as a fencing weapon isn't a sword.

If you use it for another action than final judgment, you won't have to subtract dice from your dice pool for the finisher attack. With this particular combo a character with 4 agility can do 24 damage with 2+ criticals on an armored opponent (pierce 1). And with three basic successes and nothing else you'll still do 22 damage. Devestating attack. On top of that execution shot is quite nice with the ability to make an extra melee attack, because with two boons the targets soak is reduced by two for the basic melee attack and any other attacks for the rest of the round. The weakest may be seek confession, but still you can make all enemies within close range (5 quares) suffer 2 stress. That's either a lof of A/C/E dice gone or a lot of wounds spread over several NPC.

I do think the judgment set lacks a reaction card. I don't fully understand their system behind the sets, because some styles have 5-6 cards and many have reaction cards. The thing missing from the judgment set is a reaction card.

Gallows said:

I agree ... personally I think execution shot would have been perfect as a reaction ... take a free shot on engaged enemy whom you just dealt a crit ... (or something like that)

Oh well - lets see what they come up with at some point ....

I was thinking about warning shot. It's not a great card in terms of damage as the max is normal damage +1 (+1 fatigue and +1 critical). But it's a great defensive action giving up to 3 misfortune dice to the targets next action (the one you interrupt), forcing him to spend fatigue to use maneuvers. It's already a reaction card to the only change would be very simple... to add the Judgement trait to the card. This adds another judgment card and potentially +3 damage if used in the same round as final judgement. Lets try that and see how it goes

Gallows said:

The reason I think this card is a perfect judgement card is that it falls in line with the other styles having a defensive reaction card. This defensive reaction card is then also an attack... what better way for a witch hunter to defend himself and others than shooting at people. It's actually one of the best reaction cards in the game, now that I look at it. You get a rather strong defense (3 misfortune) plus you get to make an attack. The downside being that you must be disengaged, but taking a step backwards and shooting the attacker in the face as he engages you is pretty nice.

True - only ....well not problem ...challange ... is that it 'requires' balistic skill ... oh well ... in a few 10-20 xps time

Boehm said:

It's not an actual requirement, although you will benefit from the skill. You can still use it for defense and to get more tokens when you play Final Judgement.

Gallows said:

I just meant that you DO need to hit ... for the card to take effect .. or recharge ... - still I will definatly pick it up ...but perhaps only after having aquired balistic skill so I can actually hit something ... (Ag3 and no balistic skill does make it kinda difficult to hit anything )