For me this actioncard just doesnt feel right ....

What would you guys think about something like this:

CONSERVATIVE SIDE

Prerequisite : Only usable in a surprise round, target unaware of your presense.

Stealth (Ag) vs. target observation

Difficulty 1, +1 expertise die if trained in weaponskill

1 success: normal damage (use Ag or S) and draw 3 crits, select 1 then discard the others

3 successes: as above, and apply wounds equal to highest severity crit

1 boon: apply stress or fatigue equal to highest severity crit

2 boons: apply wounds equal to highest severity crit

Sigmars comet: Henchmen or target with T3 or less; Killed

Sigmars comet: draw 2 extra crits, select one and discard others

RECKLESS SIDE

Prerequisite : Only usable against outnumbered opponent

Stealth (Ag) vs. target observation

Difficulty 2, +1 fortune die if trained in weaponskill

(reduce difficulty by 1 per ally in engagement)

1 success: normal damage+2

3 successes: same as above, draw a crit per ally in engagement (max 3), select one and discard others

2 boons: apply stress or fatigue equal to highest severity crit

2 boons: apply wounds equal to highest severity crit

Sigmars comet: draw 2 more crits, select one and discard the other

----

what do u guys think?

To elaborate a bit, the problems I have with backstab is:

1) It only works in big engagements and make no allowence for actually "backstabbing people"

2) Its very situation specfic yet underpowered compared to other attacks

3) I would be nice if it actually allows a PC to take out a guardpost minion ....

Boehm said:

If you want to backstab and kill a guard in a single blow it would just be an opposed stealth check. No card needed (perform a stunt). To create a card that could potentially one shot someone would be unbalanced for regular combat.

Backstab works well against armored opponents and people can't defend against it, since the card isn't vs. . I'd say that it's a fairly powerful card. Since it's against intelligence it's very effective against dumb opponents and since it can ignore armor soak (also natural armor), it's very good against dumb and big monsters. It's not so great against that bright fencer in his morning gown I'll give you that, but it's a great card.

I am generally very opposed to changing action cards as it creates a clutter of rules where the whole point of having the cards vanishes.

Made an eon card called "Dagger in the Dark" that is a backstabbing epic card (need to be rank 4 to take it, from heroes call. The card is designed in a similar way, that you need to be stealthed, behind opponent and so on. My idea is that rogues/assassins should be as lethal as any other class when they strike opponents that are not aware of them, at least when they are rnk 3-4+. As i find the game right now mages, 2-handed warriors and archer are waaaaaaay more lethal than the awful backstabbers (in wfrp) that got like three, more or less, crap actions (backstab, coordinated strike and nimble strike) compared to the attack actions the other classes got. So i ve started to make a few cards to make a sneaky backstabber a valid option. Further my cards are locked in the surprise/stealth part where i recon they should be. I dont want rogues to stand in the front line giving out as much damage as a warrior for example, i want them to dash in from the shdows, repositon, and strike again. This card make the rogue to advance into position and strike an opponent back and if lucky one-shot them in silence so they can fade back into the shadows again. The card is an opener so when the rogue fails to re-emerge into shadows he cant make the attack again during the encounter, but if he succed the card has 3 turn recharge (not sure about this). About balance, i really disagree that backstab as it is is balanced as you state if you compare it to bright wizards rnk 3 spells, slayer attacks, 2-handed warriors with thunderous blow/reckless cleave, archers with sniper shot/ rapid fire etc its imo crap. Further, this card is more or less locked with daggers cause its damage comes from by-passing armor up-close (need to find a good angle) and puncturing internal organs/giving schock and internal bleeding, hate rogues with swords, maces, morningstars, but thats just me. And remember, its an epic action card, nothing your second rank burgler could invest in

(im a total failure with computers and this eon-software so dont know how to attach it here, sorry for that).

But i ll copy paste

<c>=purple dice, <f>=White dice, <m>= Black dice, <su>=success, <bo>=boon, <sc>= Sigmars comet, <ba> bane

Trait; Epic, Rogue

Rank; 4

Requisities; Agility 5+, Stealth trained, not encumbered, target unaware, behind target, target humanoid (thinking of letting backstab work on animals if nature lore is trained, but im not sure)

Conservative stance; CR <c>

You use stealth and cunning to surprise the target with a dagger in his vitals. After the attack, roll for Initiative and enter the encounter as ordinary. The attack uses agility rather than strength when calculating damage. If first aid is trained add<f>. If anything else than a dagger is used add <c>
<su> +1 damage
<su><su><su> + Intelligence damage
<bo><bo> +Critical damage
<bo><bo> free movement and/or may remain stealthed if GM finds it possible
<sc> Ignore armor soak value
<sc> + Agility damage
<ba><ba> Lost initiative, you act last in the encounter
<cs> weapon stuck, Str. test (<c><c>) to ****** it loose

Reckless stance; CR <c><m><m>

You use stealth and cunning to surprise the target with a dagger in his vitals. After the attack, roll for Initiative and enter the encounter as ordinary. The attack uses agility rather than strength when calculating damage. If first aid is trained add<f>. If anything else than a dagger is used add <c><m><m>
<su> + 1 damage, + 1 Critical
<su><su><su><su> + Intelligence damage, +1 Critical
<bo><bo> +Critical damage
<bo><bo> Ignore armor soak value
<sc> + Agility damage
<sc> free movement and/or may remain stealthed if GM finds it possible
<ba><ba> Lost initiative, you act last in the encounter
<cs> weapon stuck, Str. test (<c><c>) to ****** it loose

Vasquia said:

And as your card Its stealth vs obseravtion

Vasquia said:

Nice idea ... - I actually revised my idea a bit ... instead of going for a one-hit one kill card - I revised it to be decent, and using boons to prevent the target from screaming out or running away - so you can spend multiple rounds if necessary ...

The thought here being that you roll Stealth (Ag) vs. Observation (Int) in order to bring yourself up behind your target .... then using pure Stealth for the attack

I dont use cards for stealth attack, but i made some rules. I think making complex rules for typical situations are the best think in WFRP 3 mechanics.

[W] - white, - black, [P] - purple;

STEALTH ATTACK

Melee - Skulduggery vs Observation (to sidle to enemy)

Ranged - Stealth vs Observation

DIFFICULTY:

ENEMY:
The enemy is casting a spell or was hit for 2+ damage from one attack this round - [W][W]
The enemy is attacking someone or was only hit for 1 damage from attacks this round - no modifier
The enemy is not attacking and not receiving damage -

VISIBILITY:
Candles, torches or bright night - [W]
Normal night - [W][W]
Starless night or complete darkness - [W][W][W]

WEAPON YOU ARE USING (only melee stealth attack):
2handed or heavy - [P][P]
Hand weapon - [P]
Dagger or similar weapon - no modifier

DISTANCE TO ENEMY (only ranged stealth attack):
Close - no modifier
Medium - [P]
Long - [P][P]

-----------------

The damage can be counted from Strength or Agility, whatever suits you.

__________

OUTCOME

If you dont succeed, the target sees you before you can make an attack. He is prepared to fight or run. Roll initiative.

<HAMMER> - damage is equal to weapon damage + Str or Agi + number of HAMMERS. (example: 3 hammers is weapon + Str or Agi + 3 damage)

<BOON><BOON> - you can choose the hit location so you pierce trough armor

<SKULL> - 1 SKULL equals 1 stress (its stressful, isnt it?)

<SIGMAR> (melee) - you hold the enemy, hes not making any sound and you have opportunity to make another stealth attack at +1 [P] difficulty
<SIGMAR> (ranged) - enemy didnt saw from which direction the shot was made and you stay unnoticed. You can make another stealth attack at +1 [P] difficulty

<CHAOS STAR> - target sees you before an attack and can have immidiate action against you.

Im waiting for your opinions. Pardon my english, btw.

I don't want an action card for backstab either. Backstab during a fight is silly. Backstabbing is only for situations where the opponent is completely unaware of you and no action card is needed. It's simply an opposed check and enough successes, boons and comets kill or subdue the target more or less silently.

In combat backstab isn't a card that simulate a thief like backstab. It's just uding movement to your advantage while the opponent is aware of you.

IF you are somehow able to surprise someone during a fight by jumping from a roof etc. It would be a perform a stunt check first, and then follow up with any attack you want. The perform a stunt check would result in bonus dice or damage. Also if he's unaware then he can't use any defence cards against your attack and may even rule that an attack where the opponent is unaware of you is just a simple check (0d). But it depends very much on the situation and if would require something extraordinary to become hidden so the enemy is unaware of you. There is an action card however that allows you to make maneuvers and hide. That card could be used very well by a thief like character.

The card Backstab isn't what is usually considered a backstab. It's more like a stealthy flanking attack of sorts.

Don't let the name of the card mislead you.

You get reduced difficulty when allies are distracting the target. It's a card for rogues who are apt at letting combatants "forget" about them and then strike them in the back suddenly.

In my opinion there should not be the possibility of backstabbing some one in the middle of a combat, it sounds a bit ridiculous for me, but probably is because those games like D&D that we look to such a thing.

Said that, I think an action card for backstabbing is nice. A stealth vs observation sounds to me the right check.

May be if you succeed you critically damage your target and if you additionally roll a Sigmar comet, you just kill the opponent right away (just to say something). For those who does not have the action card, they can use the perform a stunt with some added difficulty.

As GM, I have never found my self in this situation in WFRP 3rd ed for the moment.

Yepesnopes said:

True, but we need to redefine what "backstab" means. In D&D, it meant the very damaging backstab (often lethal) that we see in spy movies. Creep up, slip blade through ribs or slit throat, hide corpse...

Here, I believe it just means, attacking from behind while avoiding your target's awareness. An attack where the quality of your Stealth will be the determining factor regarding damage dealt. I find that very interesting, IMO.