Most characters are less powerful than they should be actually IMHO. For instance I rose the level of a few NPCs in the setting to match better my playstile and to make so that players will probably look up to them for quite a long while.
Where is Omega?
Elric of Melniboné said:
Most characters are less powerful than they should be actually IMHO. For instance I rose the level of a few NPCs in the setting to match better my playstile and to make so that players will probably look up to them for quite a long while.
This is a good point as well. I do not know if this is because of design flaw, or because Gaia is supposed to be low-powered.
I read a bit of the spanish forum and it seems over there that even THE BIG BADASSES of the setting (like Demeter Stratos, for an instance) are no higher than level 18 most times (perhaps Nemesis is 20, but he's one of the very few).
Lia Valenth said:
1) Pre Core Exxet spells(less powerful)
Start with a non-munchkin mage, but one that was built well, meaning INT 14-16 POW 10-12. Have them know the Book of Creation and Book of Light to level 100 in both. This guy should already have the Added Maintenance metamagic tree, which is my favorite of the trees, but as that there are 4 this is fairly likely anyway. Now have him cast Chimera on himself, increase POW to 15 and INT to 20 (this will take ~200DP, you should be able to get ~300) and Opposite Magic, then learn Book of Darkness and Book of Destruction as fast as possible. Next enter the wake and, using Lord of Dreams or Lord of Nightmares obtain access to Divine Magic. Finally use Ascension and Dark Ascension to increase your Gnosis by +20 (as that each gives +10Gnosis). With the 500DP get your Projection up to your now level 13-ness, increase Zeon, and use the rest of the DP as CP for whatever you need to improve, and with the +10 from your higher Gnosis, combined with a spell or metamagic ability to increase your projection, you might pull this off.
2) Post Core Exxet spells(what I planned this in)
Much as above, except Chimera grants +400DP, Ascention automatically sets your Gnosis to 45 (albeit you have to cast Eternal Magic to make it Daily Maintenance) and by using Perfection to give +1 to all stats Chimera does not have to carry as much of a load. Unfortunently the Destruction Magic in this build is much weaker than in Pre-Core.
Yes this would work much better if they were a munchkin before casting Chimera, but the point is that it is doable with a fairly standard level 10 mage. But, as I said above, I would never allow this normally from a PC, just from the Munchkinity of it. And yes, by the end he is counted as a level 14, but as this is done by casting spells at level 10 I count it as a level 10.
Works all good if you plan to fight him in the Wake, but once you leave, anything aquired via Lord of Dreams/Nightmares, including access to Divine, and any spell you cast go away (they are not real after all). Its not really clear in the Core Book descriptions of the spells, but it is clarified in the Core Exxect. And dont forget, once Chimira is cast, that character ceases being a 10th level character and becomes a 12th level character (if adding 200 DP) or a 14th (if you add 400 DP). Also, I am not sure where you can turn DP to CP. Must have missed that one.
shinjox said:
Works all good if you plan to fight him in the Wake, but once you leave, anything aquired via Lord of Dreams/Nightmares, including access to Divine, and any spell you cast go away (they are not real after all). Its not really clear in the Core Book descriptions of the spells, but it is clarified in the Core Exxect. And dont forget, once Chimira is cast, that character ceases being a 10th level character and becomes a 12th level character (if adding 200 DP) or a 14th (if you add 400 DP). Also, I am not sure where you can turn DP to CP. Must have missed that one.
1) That thing about the Wake and Lord of Dreams is interesting. I would like more information on this because it does not make any sense to me. Yes you lose all the bonuses you gained from Lord of Dreams, but the character not using those after they leave the wake. I do not own Core Exxet so I cannot argue against this per se.
2) I noted they count as a level 12-14, but I count them as a level 10 because; A) Chimera is weird, B) This is done at level 10, so it only requires a level 10 to do not a level 12-14, and C) The plan involves returning to the original body and losing godhood after beating Omega, so they start and end at level 10.
3) Normally you cannot turn DP into CP or vise versa, however DP/CP bonus from Gnosis can be used as both I believe (Gnosis 45 grants 500DP or 10CP, I think you can use 300DP and 4CP if you want. I could be wrong). Albeit if Lord of Dreams works as you suggest this is moot...
Having said that I asked elsewhere and no one has said anything wrong with this plan (you know, other than the ridiculously munchkin, overpowered, and game breakingness of it). But it relies on Lord of Dreams working the way I think it does...
One problem with the 45 gnosis thing I noticed(aside from questionable transfers to the real world) is that you can't use the bonus dp you get, from gnosis, for anything other than essential abilities and powers, so no shoring up your magic projection.
Kalis said:
One problem with the 45 gnosis thing I noticed(aside from questionable transfers to the real world) is that you can't use the bonus dp you get, from gnosis, for anything other than essential abilities and powers, so no shoring up your magic projection.
Your right...I'm sure there is a way around this, can't think of one though...good catch.
The way around it is that Predetermined Zen metamagic crushes his defense and attack, and can be used to increase the MR checks he has to make.
Magic itself isn't that bad, but metamagic breaks the game over its knee. At level 10, 440 defense is basically unbeatable and it still holds up well at level 15. Half zeon costs on spells, increasing MR checks by casting automatic spells with magic projection, 5 free rounds to accumulate zeon, the ability to cast high magic at below 25 gnosis for the rather paltry doubling of spell costs(no need for chimera, just use this metamagic enter the world of dreams and get your 45 gnosis with the arcane level Ascension or Dark Ascension), doubling or tripling shield life points as a passive, and more.
Kalis said:
Magic itself isn't that bad, but metamagic breaks the game over its knee. At level 10, 440 defense is basically unbeatable and it still holds up well at level 15. Half zeon costs on spells, increasing MR checks by casting automatic spells with magic projection, 5 free rounds to accumulate zeon, the ability to cast high magic at below 25 gnosis for the rather paltry doubling of spell costs(no need for chimera, just use this metamagic enter the world of dreams and get your 45 gnosis with the arcane level Ascension or Dark Ascension), doubling or tripling shield life points as a passive, and more.
First I am ignoring the argument that would be started about balance.
That 440 Defense thing can be read two ways. I read it as you have to spend 200 Zeon every time you block, which works perfectly fine. Others read it as being able to cast the shield with 200 extra Zeon and block everything with 440 as long as the shield lasts, which does break the game.
Also, why would you not want to use Chimera (in this case)?
Once you cast Chimira on yourself or another, the change is permant, unless of course you die and are brought back into a different body. So basiaclly, once you cast it, short of getting a completly new body, you are still a higher level entity.
As for the Lord of Dreams/Nightmares, it is dependant. Nothing you gain with the higher Gnosis is real, since it itself is not real (it states that the Gnosis is real) and so once you leave the Wake, you no longer have anything that is gained from it.
In core exxet it just glarifies and exands on it.
Basically, it may make you godlike in the dream/wake, but once you return to the real world, you are yourself again.
In the Core Book, it states: modifying it as if he had a Gnosis 45 (although it's not real).
Core Exxet states specificifically: Spells that the caster is able to cast because of this Gnosis have no effect beyond the special limits of the spell and its effects disappear once the caster leaves the dream or the Wake.
shinjox said:
In core exxet it just glarifies and exands on it. Basically, it may make you godlike in the dream/wake, but once you return to the real world, you are yourself again. In the Core Book, it states: modifying it as if he had a Gnosis 45 (although it's not real). Core Exxet states specificifically: Spells that the caster is able to cast because of this Gnosis have no effect beyond the special limits of the spell and its effects disappear once the caster leaves the dream of the Wake.
So...what if you cast Ascension with Lord of Dreams and then use the 45 Gnosis gained from Ascension to cast Dark Ascension? The Ascension spell is lost when you leave the wake because it was cast with Lord of Dreams, but the Dark Ascension was cast with Ascension and therefore is arguable.
Also, level 80 Essense spell can get you back to your body without death. That was my plan anyway.
Lia Valenth said:
So...what if you cast Ascension with Lord of Dreams and then use the 45 Gnosis gained from Ascension to cast Dark Ascension? The Ascension spell is lost when you leave the wake because it was cast with Lord of Dreams, but the Dark Ascension was cast with Ascension and therefore is arguable.
Also, level 80 Essense spell can get you back to your body without death. That was my plan anyway.
Since the Gnosis gained from Ascension is not real (as it is cast due to an not-real Gnosis from the Lord spell, the Dark Ascension isn't real. Any effect that is based on the fake Gnosis is only useful in the Wake, thus anything that uses that Gnois is fake as werll. You could cast a thousand effects based on one another, but if the base is fake, the whole of it is.
And I think you are thinking of the Level 76 spell, Transmigrate Soul, though you still need another body. Spiritual Existence (level 90 Essence) allows you to turn into a spiritual being, and is in essecnce Essence's Chimira. I remember figuring out how to get yourself to enough Gnosis to beable to cast Divine, but for I can't remember it. But your method will only work while in the Wake.
But without changing bodies or something like that, you are still Chimiraed. And besides, why the heck would you want to STOP being Chimira'd. What wizard, even the most benificent of them, would want to give up the ability to cast High Magic?
Oh, you could get a godlike being with a gnosis 50 to cast Ascension or Dark Ascension on you, that would allow you to get up to a 40 Gnosis. THen Eternal Magic if you can get it to a point where it can affect Ascension/Dark Ascension (with Core Exxet rules you just need to cast it at the proper Grade to make it affect the spell).
Lia Valenth said:
Also, why would you not want to use Chimera (in this case)?
Because if you don't, you are still a natural being and that has certain protections that have been discussed at length in other topics. I don't want to be the Genie from Aladdin(phenominal cosmic power and itty bitty living space), just because Ash Ketchum comes along.
You are correct on the Essense spells, should have looked at that better. However,
shinjox said:
Since the Gnosis gained from Ascension is not real (as it is cast due to an not-real Gnosis from the Lord spell, the Dark Ascension isn't real. Any effect that is based on the fake Gnosis is only useful in the Wake, thus anything that uses that Gnois is fake as werll. You could cast a thousand effects based on one another, but if the base is fake, the whole of it is.
This does not make any sense to me, let me explain why.
example 1) You enter The Wake with the corpse of a recently dead ally (preferably less than a day) and use Lord of Dreams to have "fake" access to Divine Magic. Then you cast Resurrection (Level 96 Essense) then Lord of Souls (Level 100 Essense) to return the ally back to life. You then leave the wake with them and they die on the spot?
example 2) You use the plan I made to fight Omega, except you do it in The Wake. Then you use Destroy Powers and Sweep From the Heavens to make Omega a Gnosis 20 being with no supernatural abilities (this is easy if he fails the Destroy Powers). To make sure Omega is dead and stays dead you use Armageddon to destroy Omega body and soul. Then you leave The Wake. Then does Omega instantly comes back to life with full powers in The Wake?
Both examples use Divine Magic to accomplish something that you want permanent, but if the effects of your magic are not real then you cannot do anything that would affect the world with Lord of Dreams. Basically it becomes a useless spell. However, if instead Lord of Dreams allows you to use Divine magic while in the wake that ends when you leave because you no longer have the Gnosis, then things that have permanent durations persist after you leave the wake.
If the second thing is the case, and the above are permanent, then the spells cast through Lord of Dreams cannot be "fake". Thus it can be argued that Ascension, cast through Lord of Dreams, has its full effect. Therefore, any ability you use via Ascension persists after The Wake, including but not limited to Dark Ascension. Which gives me an idea for example #3 which complicates things further, but requires a mage and a few volunteers,
example 3) A mage goes into the wake and casts Ascention and then Chimera on another person, when casting Chimera gives them The Gift and 90 spell levels of Light (and other stuff to be determined later, not important atm I think) and teaches him the rest of the Book of Light. The wizard stays in the wake, the volunteer leaves (we'll call him chimera1.
Chimera1 now has 100 spell levels of Light and 45 Gnosis in the real world (maintained in The Wake by the first mage) and casts Ascension and Chimera on another person and teaches them to 100 level in Book of Light. This person is called Chimera2.
Chimera2 now goes to the wake and casts Ascension on the first Wizard, who casts Dark Ascension on himself. They both leave the wake and Ascension stops working on Chimera1, thereby Chimera2, and the Wizard. However by this point the Dark Ascension cast on the Wizard was caused by an Ascension that was used by an Ascension, both in the real world. Now what happens?
There is even more grounds to argue that the Dark Ascension in this case is capable of continuing. The only problem is that these are all Maintained abilities (what with Ascension becoming a per turn maintenance as of Core Exxet, which is very annoying IMO) and can therefore be argued either way. This would be a lot easier if I could figure out how to get 50Gnosis temporarily (like you could before Core Exxet).
To Kalis;
Once you have Gnosis 45 you are Immune to Control, Bind and Banish, and can choose rather or not you want to be summoned. Beings with more Gnosis can effect you, but that is GM meddling and GM wins over all other powers. Therefore, the answer to this is Ascension, as that I am getting the highest Gnosis a character can get without GM intervention. Had I know about it I would have used it before (albeit it may not work, as was pointed out by Shinjox, after Core Exxet). This is found on page 179 under "Gnosis and Summoning". (Remember my comment about this being, "Make anyone a munchkin Plan Beta"?, well your summoner idea killed Alpha of just using Chimera and this small, one paragraph rule is why Beta, Chimera+Ascension, works.)
EDIT: Example 4) I thought of this because of what Kalis said, but the above examples 1-2 are permanent and example 3 is maintained, creating a bit of a problem. However here is a question: A character uses Lord of Dreams to obtain Divine Magic (like all examples here) , specifically Eternal Magic. He then casts Eternal Magic on Arcane Level Daily Spells, such as Damage Barrior, Increase Resistances, Perfect Shield, etc. These are permanant effects, just as killing someone, or bringing them back in the wake is. so if killing someone in the wake works, this should work. But does it, and if not why?
Oh and sorry, didn't mean to have this long of a speech...
Well, let me ask this in another way. Consider this. Wizard creates a illusiuon of an island.
That is, in essence, what you are saying you can do. Not only build a city, but farms and fields, gardens that will thrive and the like. After all the Gnosis gained via the Lord of Dreams/Nightmares varies, depending on where you are in the wake (positive, negaitve, or neutrally balanced).
While there might be some wiggle room with the Core Book, Core Exxet is pretty clear.
As for killing Omega and leaving, and him no longer being dead, theres a couple answers.
One is that due to the nature of the Wake, which is all funky and wierd, no he would stay dead.
Two is that to kill a being of such godlike nature, perhaps you have to sacrifice something, like you life in the real world.
I am sure there are more possibilities, but you get my drift.
But I guess it comes down to how your GM reads the spells, and such. Its a great idea, but at least for me, it wouldn't work that way. But then, when you look at most of the spells of Anima, they are very ambiugous, allowing for multiple amounts of interpretation.
Oh, and I forgot the example with Chimira 1 and 2. Once C1 leaves the Wake, anything that was cast on him by the other would go pft, and visa versa. The effects of anything allowed via Lord of Dreams/Nightmares does not leave the Wake (or a persons dreams). The name kinda gives it a way when you think about it. Lord of Dreams/Nightmares.
I think we have a fundamental disagreement of what The Wake is, not so much what this spell can do. I always think of it like Tel'aran'rhiod from The Wheel of Time, a dream world that is also a dimension of its own.
It does not make sense to me as just a dream world, where nothing there is real, for many reasons. But most importantly, because if we go with the idea nothing there is real Lord of Dreams/Nightmares is a useless ability because nothing it does can affect the real world in any way.
But, if it works like Tel'aran'rhiod, a world separate from our own, a reflection of it really, but just as real if you go there. The dangers there are just as real if you go there in body, and a "Your mind makes it real" thing if you go there in mind/spirit. In this case, while it reflects our world more, our world does reflect it to a lesser degree. From the description I have read, where you are in grave danger if you go there, this way makes more sense to me.
If The Wake is a reality of its own then things that happen there can effect the real world and permanent things done there persist. If it is just a dream world then it is unimportant to our world.
I always thought the Wake was simaliar to the Fade in Dragon Age: Origins. A place that can be entered while dreaming or by those with a significant amount of power, and that it is a distorted reflection of our own world inhabited by it's own beings, usually called "demons."
It's true that the Wake IS in its way real. The whole point is that Lord of Dreams/Lord of Nightmares description CLEARLY SPECIFIES that the effects of your incremented gnosis in the wake DON'T transfer outside of it. You're actually having those powers "by a dream". You "dreaming of being uberpowerful and omnipotent", due to the working of the Wake, becomes reality as far as you are there...but when you leave the Wake, that becomes "Oh! It was just a dream!"
Luring opponents into the Wake is a good strategy for a Lord of Dreams/Nightmares (as is for Erebus Avatars).
See, that is too simple for my tastes, and seems out of place for how the wake is described. If it is a dream killing someone there has no effect, or is only a "Your mind makes it real" thing. There is also a large difference between entering The Wake physically and spiritually to me. My point is: it either has an effect on the real world or it does not, which is all this argument comes down to. By "it does not" I mean it can have no affect on our world in any way no matter what you do, this includes killing things. However by it has an affect on the real world I mean at least some things that happen in the wake, such as killing people, have an affect on our world. If this is the case then it is much more complicated than a dream world.
If it is merely a dream world then it works like (in my understanding) the Fade in Dragon Age: Origins (I have not played but did look it up) in that if you die there you are jerked awake in the real world with some possible, but slight, mental/physical damage. This makes fighting in The Wake (especially against Omega who is mostly immune to any physical damage of this sort and is already insane) kind of pointless. Although the Fade is probably a little more complicated, the problem with this idea is that you can enter The Wake physically, meaning it is more than just a dream. How much more? that is the question.
I prefer my Tel'aran'rhoid idea, because 1) it is more lethal and thus more dangerous, 2) it has a bigger effect on the real world, 3) The Wheel of Time has already gone in depth to what going into Tel'aran'rhoid physically or spiritually does, and most importantly 4) how Tel'aran'rhoid works in WoT fits really well with the feel of Anima.
It is a strong possibility that, what you do in the wake reamains (at least until someone else comes along and changes it), so luring and killing somoeone there, it stays dead. But, just like the world of dreams, if you get changed into a horse in it, you dont come out a horse. If you dream yourself the Creator, you don't leave a creator. Think of it as the abilities of a Dreamer. They can't do much (unless thier are chanellers too) outside the World of Dreams, but within, they are masters.
shinjox said:
But, just like the world of dreams, if you get changed into a horse in it, you dont come out a horse.
Why not? This is where we disagree, obviously. I say you do stay a horse if you entered there physically. If you entered there in a dream you come out a human, with some possible temporary mental problems.
Which is a big problem when dealing with the wake. There are two ways to enter it, dreaming and physically (through a portal).
If you dream yourself into the wake one way or another, then use Lord of Dreams it would only work as a dream because you are not actually in the wake, only your spirit is. Turn into a horse, come out a human. Turn into a Chimera god, come out a human.
But if you enter the wake physically, your soul and body combining into one (I reread the wake for that bit, no idea what it really means) then anything that happens in the wake is as real to you as if it had happened in the real world. Turn into a horse, come out a horse. Turn into a Chimera god, come out a Chimera (possibly a god, though this is still up for debate).
If you enter it by dreaming you cannot be cut in half, but your mind could die (heart attack, aneurism, stress, etc. kills you in the real world, or you never come out and your body is brain dead).
If you enter physically you can be cut in half, stabbed through the heart, etc. You never return because your physical body was killed there.
(this is actually supported directly by the wording in the book)
I don't see The Wake being as simple as a dream world, and I do not believe it was meant to be that simple. Think I will ask on the Official forum and see what they think as well.
Good idea, after all right now, we are only speculating.
And unless someone misses my question, I'll ask again.
Why would anyone want to be unChimira'd
heh
The Official Forum does have a chance of Anima Studios stepping in and telling me I'm wrong/right, which would at least end it
shinjox said:
Why would anyone want to be unChimira'd
heh
So the GM doesn't shoot them in the foot, or to prevent yourself from being Summoned, Controlled or Bound (albeit this is probably the result of the GM shooting you in the foot).
Other than that, the only reason I can think of is so that you can Chimera yourself again and choose different powers this time
.
Right now what I am getting is;
1) If you enter physically through a portal everything done there is real. Therefore if you are turned into a horse and then somehow return to Gaia you are still a horse.
2) With post-Core Exxet spells there is no way to use Lord of Dreams/Nightmares to use the Ascension and/or Dark Ascension spells to gain 45 Gnosis in Gaia, nor any other spell that requires maintenance. It would also probably be impossible pre-Core Exxet as well.
3) Killing or ressurrecting people in The Wake via Lord of Dreams, and what happens when you/they return to Gaia was not really answered other than people would not allow abuse of it.
4) As per permanent spells (specifically Eternal Magic) using Lord of Dreams, while I have not been satisfied, it looks like people agree with you in that they cannot be used to gain permanent effects. I disagree, but I believe I have been outvoted
.
Finally, until something is said by Anima Studios, it is definitely arguable either way because, much like everything in this game, it was written very ambiguously. I will interpret it a completely different way within my games, but if someone asks I will go with the above.
I see it like Lia: The Wake is more than a dream world. It is a dimension, which mirrors some aspects of the real world, but not only dreams.
And for: "You enter the wake physical (also body and soul) and make your self a chimera god (Lord of Dreams/Nightmares)": IMO, you would leave the wake as chimera (your body was transformed into a chimera), but not as a "god" (Lord of Dreams/Nightmares make you only god in the wake, so it only "function" in the dimension called wake).
So long,