So I'm trying to decide what BC rules I want to adopt with my group. I am really torn on the changes to Swift/Lightning Attack modeling them fully like automatic fire.

My big concern is with enemies who can really dodge just about everything thrown at them and which the players need to focus fire to burn their Reactions in order to bring down. What come to mind are predominantly genestealers and lictors. I've seen them dodge 7 hits with a pre-errata heavy bolter. Even with a Kill-Team of 6, the players don't always have the chance to focus fire (e.g. when they're literally being surrounded by genestealers). Their big tactic is typically having the Assault Marine or anyone with multiple attacks hammer away the Reactions and then blasting the enemy when they can no longer dodge. Obviously this gets more effective when the AM has Lightning Attack because if they're in a position to use all 3 attacks, only 2 can be negated unless the enemy has both Step Aside and Wall of Steel. I'm not sure if this is too good a move to allow them to keep using, because it's effective, but when you're facing 6 genestealers you need to do what works after all.

On the other hand I feel like the BC changes are a little cheap. Devastators, for example, start out able to lay down an unholy amount of fire, and they have a lot of situational modifiers and wargear to help them. Meleeists do not. The coutner to a dev is a great Dodge roll could negate all their shots and waste their ammo. The counter to a meleeist is more limited overall hits and a better chance to negate all damage. Pumping BS is easy and hitting 6+ DoS is also easy; most enemies will not get THAT great of a roll and will take a hit or two. On the other hand, meleeists have to invest in Swift/Lightning attack (one or both depending on specialty). Without those, one dodge wastes your round. Until Rank 2, enemies with 2 dodges waste the round of even assault specialists and even then there's the chance that 2/3 of attacks will be negated by dodging. The "rate" of melee swings under BC is the WS bonus - lower than some RoF (but potentially higher in the long run) and not boostable with modifiers in the same way as ranged attacks. Assuming a WS in the 50s, one good dodge roll can negate everything, and enemies/players may still have 1 or 2 more Reactions to play with (or more, with Squad Modes).

I guess I'm not sure why FFG decided to change the rules on multiple melee attacks. I understand it does some streamlining and not needing to remember different rules for different combat circumstances but I don't like how it potentially nerfs melee even more, especially in the face of foes with multiple reactions. In another thread I showed how melee can be extremely competitive fighting hordes so long as you have access to particular gear (all Distinguished or higher) and in some cases requiring being a Tyrannic War Veteran; by contrast, all anyone needs to do the same at range is a high RoF weapon and a pack of relatively cheap specialty ammo.

I agree that some ranged stuff, particularly the heavy bolter, needed a nerf. So if the nerf to bolters meant melee should have been more competitive (which the nerf to the bolters might support), why add the BC rules in as another potential nerf to melee? Especially since power weapons add a single hit, where the proposed errata to X-type ammo will do much more and re-buff bolters vs. hordes? Against a Mag 30 horde, with WS 51, you're looking at a max of (I think) 5 hits, rather than (potentially) 15 with Core Lightning Attack over the span of 3 full swings. And that's with no bonuses, where a ranged fighter could easily have bonuses from full-auto (under the core, as BC has changed that too) and range. Each of those melee hits is going to hurt less than a bolt (which is appropriate if you get more hits, but not if you get fewer). That is assuming rolling 01 for all rolls, and how likely is that?

Is this an appropriate nerf? Is the point to indirectly buff Hordes? I understand there is a cry to both make Hordes actual foes (IMO they are, with their damage output and number of attacks) and prevent a Mag 90 Horde from going down in one turn. Also the rules encourage you to fight Hordes at range behind cover since their attacks generally cannot be avoided. But does it then follow that melee should be basically useless at worst or very subpar at best against Hordes? What negative effects does that have on specialties, builds, or simply the choice to engage a swarm of foes in melee?

Kshatriya said:

One thing worth noting here - Wall of Steel doesn't exist in Black Crusade. Step Aside allows an additional Dodge or Parry, so characters can only get 2 reactions, 3 if they use Defensive Stance (note, this has been an oft-ignored additional option since Rogue Trader). I'm not including Squad Mode abilities here, as that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Note, however, that while dodging or parrying a melee attack in Deathwatch is an all-or-nothing matter, there's room for variation of results in Black Crusade - Evasion against multiple hits is resolved the same whether the attack is automatic fire or a lightning attack.

One further consideration - against a Purestrain Genestealer (from Mark of the Xenos), a charging WS 50 Rank 1 Assault Marine hits slightly more often under the Black Crusade rules than the Deathwatch ones - using a Standard Attack on the charge hits slightly more often, and using Swift Attack on the charge instead makes it more difficult for the Genestealer to completely dodge the attack roll. It's only a few % difference, though.

Kshatriya said:

It's not just streamlining. It's also there to allow greater options (Swift Attack is now allowable on the charge, and both Swift and Lightning Attack are Half Actions in line with Semi- and Full-Auto Bursts), and to remove no-brainer choices (Swift Attack was never used by anyone who'd obtained Lightning Attack - the former was essentially just a stepping stone to a more powerful talent... now it's an option in its own right). And, as noted above, it doesn't actually penalise you against multiple-reaction enemies in the way you're claiming, as they can't as easily negate an entire attack with a single roll - against a good Swift or Lightning Attack, they need a good roll to completely ignore the attack.

With Black Crusade, in both ranged and melee combat, characters have a choice between single, accurate attacks (+10 to hit on Standard Attack), and less-accurate attacks with the chance of multiple hits (Semi-Auto and Swift Attack at +0/1 hit per 2 DoS, Full-Auto and Lightning Attack at -10/1 hit per DoS). In either cases, these attacks are half actions, allowing other actions (aiming, moving, etc) to precede or follow the attacks.

Kshatriya said:

Not sure where you're getting the numbers from...

WS 51 and Lightning Attack, against a Mag 30 Horde. The weapon is a Chainsword, for simplicity. The attacks all roll 01, to demonstrate maximum damage output.

Deathwatch, 3 Attacks at 81% chance to hit (WS 51, +30 for Horde Size), each scores 8 Degrees of Success, for 4 hits apiece due to standard melee bonus damage vs Hordes (+1 hit per 2 additional Degrees of Success) - 12 hits against the Horde in total.

Black Crusade, 1 Attack at 71% chance to hit (WS 51, -10 for Lightning Attack, +30 for Horde Size), scores 7 Degrees of Success. Attack scores +3 hits from standard melee bonus damage against Hordes, +4 for bonus hits from Lightning Attack (capped by WS Bonus), 1 for simply succeeding on the attack roll = 8 hits total.

Two Weapon Wielding changes both results - in the former case, it gives an extra attack, in the latter, an extra Lightning Attack...

Kshatriya said:

Not really. An Legion Chainsword in the hands of a Str40 Marine deals 1d10+13R, Pen 2 Tearing... Pen value aside, that's better than a Heavy Bolter.

Ugh I forgot that Magnitude 30 was when size bonuses to hit kicked in. I was trying to avoid that for the sake of simplicity.

I have to say I didn't follow your hit calculation for the Black Crusade example. I think I understand where parts of it come from but could you break that down a little more?

By "hurt less than a bolt" I think I meant in terms of Horde Magnitude damage since you have X and, with Metal Storm, Blast added in where for melee you only potentially have Power Field. And I'm not completely sure of the value of +1 damage vs. +4 Pen...obviously situational but I can't remember many credible threat enemies with that little AP.

Thanks for the clarification, Nathan!

From my experience the BC rules make melee waaay stronger.

we brought over the BC rules into our DW game. The rank 3 Assault marine is doing crazy amounts to hordes. more than my dev unless I'm using the HB with metal storm rounds. (we do use the errata stats) Remember that the changes to semi/full auto and swift/lightning are now penalties instead of bonuses. The Hatreds and Hunter of Aliens give the assault a +10(each) against almost all enemies, plus the horde size means he's near max bonus. weapon craftsmanship gives a bonus to melee WS but not to ranged BS. The Strength bonus on the melee weapons makes them hit harder than the standard ranged weapons. The big difference is that he has to put himself at greater risk.

as far as crazy dodging genestealers, look at the changes to unnaturals in BC. they no longer give a bonus to the roll, just extra degrees if you succeed. they actualy have a decent chance of failing the roll. the scary part of purestrains using BC rules is the multiple lightning attacks they get to do... if they get the drop on you it's a very bad place to be.

Nathiel said:

75 is the highest you can get with Characteristic purchases, and then only on Characteristics that you have a +5 Chapter bonus on. Otherwise 70 before bonuses.

in DW standard attack is no modifier to hit, semi auto is +10 and full auto is +20. in BC standard is +10, SA is +0, and Full Auto is -10.

I was refering to the maximum bonus on a roll (+60.) our AM has WS 70 so fighting a mag 30 horde of tyranids he gets +30 for the horde size, +10 for hunter of aliens, +10 for hatred (Tyranids), using Signature wargear Master for his weapon he could have an additional +10, not to mention the +10 for a master crafted weapon -10 for lightning attack. total 130. he only misses if he rolls a 00 he will always hit at least 4 times and up to 7 if he rolls 60 or lower. if he rolls a 01 he hits the horde 7 times for lightning attack (max is WS bonus,) +6 times for 12 extra degrees of success, +1 for a power weapon. so 14 hits. When using two weapons he can do this twice with only a -10 to hit and do up to 25-26 damage to the horde. on average rolls he's doing around 20.

So you have the standard 1 hit per 2 DoS in melee, then a number of additional hits up to your WS bonus, accruing at the rate of 1 hit per DoS from Lightning Attack?

According to this one:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=272&efcid=3&efidt=576968

Second post, answer #4 then yes, you get both if using the BC rules.

What. a. second. Are you sure you can use Multiple Attack against Hordes? Or any attacks rather than a single Weapon Skill Test?

If you could use such maneuvers, everyone would use All-Out Attack because you can't Dodge or Parry anyway.

There is no rule saying you can't Lightning Attack a Horde. Such a rule would be a ridiculous nerf on meleeists.

Kshatriya said:

If so, you can All-Out Attack it, which every character will do

AOA's +20 WS is one additional hit. Big deal. Dedicated ranged fighters would be stupid getting into melee just for that.

Kshatriya said:

It becomes more impressive with Furious Assault.

Seriously, I'm kind of confused as to what maneuvers are allowed in combat against hordes. Nothing is said about them; the rules don't mention them, but just a "weapon skill test." Obviously Charge is allowed and Standard Attack. Things that increase Dodge and Parry would not be, since you can't Dodge or Parry, and correspondingly there is no point in ever making a Standard Attack. It will always be either Multiple Attack or All-Out Attack.

I have a hunch that Multiple Attack is not intended to be used, or any attacks rather than Standard and Charge, but I can't prove it.

How would that make sense? Devs can open up with full auto but AMs get one swing?

In any case, a writer's discussion of how to calculate Lightning Attack damage in both the core and BC systems implies that at least one author believes that Multiple Attacks are allowed.

I imagine Tyrannic War Veterans can do maneuvers that increase Parry since they have a Talent allowing them to Parry Horde attacks.

Kshatriya said:

AMs don't get one swing; they get one extra hit per DoS and will have higher WS than the Dev.

My main issue here is actually All-Out Attack. I have no problem with Swift Attack or LA being used, I just don't want All-Out Attack to be the default option instead of Standard Attack; it seems wrong.

I'm fine with it since it seems like that's literally the only time ever that AOA is a better option than Standard Attack.

Hmm... we actually found melee was more powerful than ranged. We had a real problem that the Assault Marine was essentially the answer to everything, making much of the rest of the party redundant. Added to this was that if they had wanted the Assault Marines could also have been just as good ranged combatants as everyone except the Devastator (and Tactical Marines at higher ranks). With the Jump pack the main issue with melee, that you need to spend time getting into combat, just wasn't that much of an issue. Now, yes, if we had fought on big open plains hundreds of metres between us and the enemy, they would have had an issue, but at most of the combat ranges we fought at (100m or less) the Assault marine was in combat in the first or second round. Then their absurd number of attacks (4) could mean they could burn through an enemy's reactions on their own (which with ranged weapons required a bit more team work)), and with the right weapons they could deal with anything (tank? Power fist. Weedy things? Chainsword or Power sword. Hordes? Power weapon of any type). Their attacking and defensive ability was tied to the same characteristic (WS) so it was cheap to improve both, and with Counter Attack later on they could even go offensive when defending themselves. By being in melee they also reduced the amount of incoming fire they were going to face, and if they faced a primarily ranged combatant they had essentially neutralised him, even if they didn't kill them straight away.

The new changes... don't actually help that much, as in some cases it has boosted melee damage (the potential number of separate hits has escalated, even if the number of attack rolls has been reduced).

That's not to say ranged wasn't nasty. The devastator was a bit silly, at least until the nerf of the Heavy Bolter (which was just absurd), but it was easy enough to put them in a situation where their main role was hampered, or they had to think a bit more about what they did (in very close confines they can quickly end up in melee... where they are awful). Assault Marines don't really have the same problem. The Devastator and (later) the Tactical Marine do get talents which make them considerably better than the Assault Marine, but there is nothing stopping them just taking a bolter with specialty ammo and being about as good as any of the other specialties at shooting. If you don't want a power fist take a meltagun and then you can do tank-hunting without melee, using your jump pack to get the short range bonuses of the meltagun.

As far as the suggested errata for explosive weapons is concerned, I bloody well hope that doesn't happen. It is just stupid, at least when you realise the implications it has with specialty ammunition and the storm bolter. I really didn't think that they needed a boost against hordes.

How do the Black Crusade rule changes for Swift/Lightning Attack (i.e. being half actions) interact with DW's Preternatural Speed?

Or how do people think they should interact?

I'm thinking it might still allow Charge + Lightning Attack (since BC Charge does not allow that) and maybe add an additional hit to a Swift Attack Charge.

Preternatural Speed in BC doubles your charge distance.

With it being a rather high rank ability and much harder to get in DW than BC I don't find it unreasonable to let them lightning attack as well. (and I find it funny that the example in BC used a AG bonus of 3 when the talent requires 50 Ag.)

Thank you! Yeah I'll use the BC rule and I think I'll go with my Lightning Attack mod as well.

What a second again. You get Horde Size bonuses to melee attacks? The Size entry says it's for shooting.

bogi_khaosa said:

"Characters must still roll to hit a Horde, but the appropriate size bonus should apply to these tests based on the Horde’s Magnitude." DW Core, p. 359. The corresponding table (13-1) on the same page does not restrict to-hit bonus to ranged attacks only. The Size Trait on p.134 also makes no such distinctions between melee and ranged modifiers.

And it's not like ranged-only bonuses would make much sense.

Are you looking strictly at the "cheat sheet" in the GM Screen? That says "shooting attacks" but it conflicts with the more fleshed-out rules in the Core. I'd think the Core rulebook prevails over a shorthand quick-reference page.

Kshatriya said:

I'm looking at the description of the Size trait in the combat section. p. 249 I think.

It doesn't make sense to me to include the bonus in melee attacks. When you're attacking a horde in melee, you're actually attacking individual members of the horde, not firing into a crowd in which, if you miss one target, it's likely to hit another.

Not to mention that it makes the Rank 1 Assault Marine in my group better at taking out hordes than the Devastator with his heavy bolter.

bogi_khaosa said:

Hm. That's weird. The Size part of the Combat section says something different than the entry on the Size Trait in the Traits & Talents Chapter, which appears in the statblock every enemy with a non-standard size.

Also, that assessment of fighting a horde in melee is not entirely true. If you shoot and one and hit another, why is it strange that you can swing at one and hit another when they're packed together? You're swinging your weapon at a large front of foes, with a sweeping attack surely you can hit an individual member of the Horde even if you weren't targeting that particular one. And on a mechanical level, there are no individual targets in a Horde. It's one "thing."

I don't see how a R1 AM would be better than a Dev with that. Even a maximum hit with Swift Attack is not going to compare to a heavy bolter with its RoF, the RAW huge to-hit bonuses for range and autofire, and Unrelenting Devastation. Although Devs are dependent on Metal Storm to really annihilate Hordes.

Anyway, these discrepancies with Size require an official ruling to whether they apply in melee. I don't see why they shouldn't, personally.