While drawing up the extra spells for wood elf wizards, I began thinking about where these abilities come from and where they ACTUALLY come from for priests.

Do priests in your campaign manipulate the winds of magic, except in more rigid ways, or is it chanelled through the gods somehow? Do your gods have some kind of "non-winds-of-magic-magic?"

Do wood elf wizards and priests manpulate the winds of magic or are the winds of magic channelled through nature somehow?

In either case, in my campaign, the winds of magic are the winds of magic. The only thing that varies is how spellcasters/runelords manipulate those winds.

How does it work in your world?

The gods are "real" but "made real" by belief and emotion in the Warp of Chaos etc. and not necessarily "real people with volition and their own plans" so much as "real AI's"- one reason they can be single-minded and extreme and not "reasonable".

I generally don't like reducing things to a single source (especially magic). While it suits our needs as humans to fit things into simple categories, I believe it makes things far less realistic. In magic's case, it makes it less magical and more scientific and measured.

I also like to keep things as undefined as possible until it becomes important to the story. In my experience, you can come up with more creative material the less your brain is telling you "that's not how it works!"

So to answer your question, as far as my game is currently concerned there is no direct connection between the winds and the gods.

I probably wouldn't even put the gods worshiped by the Empire into a single category, considering they are a mix of different cultures' faiths. Maybe Sigmar exists as a real deity who influences the world, but Taal is imaginary. Maybe the opposite is true. Maybe Verena is a living wizard, who has gained power and immortality by binding his soul to a number of symbols, which can be invoked to tap into his power. Perhaps Ulric and Khorne were brothers who were consumed by the warp as they fought, and their ancient and eternal battle is a source of power for those who pray to them.

The mystery is more compelling than knowing.

I like to have these things defined ahead of time (not necessarily revealed to a PC without serious consequenses..insanity and madness of course

* Winds of Magic - controlled usage of the chaos warp

* Nature magic - Filtered magic use, usually by woodland beings and wood elves

* High magic - dangerous manipulation of the chaos warp, only done by 1000 year old elves.

* Religious magic - strict, ritualized manipulation of the chaos warp. The gods may be beings or not, is irrelevant if they exist, however "something" occasionally screws with the priests..probably as much superstitous explanation of the unknowingness of the fluctuations of the winds by events in the warp that are far greater than the pea of existence that is the known world.

* Dwarfen rune magic - as religious magic. ritualized, minimalistic

* Halfling magic and wizards (and halfling high magic, also known as how to make a pie without wasting the suculent drippings of beef or cherry) - well, this remains unexplained surely.

* ogre gastromancy - see WFB books

* Necromancy - raw manipulation of the winds, but for a purpose

etc.

My take is:

Wizards manipulate the winds themselves, which as with real winds, are not as rigidly delimited. Depending on where, how and what they manipulate, they might get more or less than they bargained for.

Priests tap into a sentience that has formed in the warp, and as such has a specific form, has a personal nature. It also has a will to give and/or not give to others as it sees fit. As such, the Priests receive power that has already been molded/filtered/what have you before being channeled into the individual that is making an active effort to appease the entity.

That's how I explain the difference between Wizards and priests, incorporating the critical failure as well as why priests can keep praying until their spell completes, instead of just falling short like wizards do.

Runic magic/Nature magic/Waaagh/... are specifically different in that they work in their own area, not the general Warp.

Necromancy: Very specific kind of magic, that recycles the refuse. Only linked to the warp through the fact that it makes use of the by-products of the winds of magic.

I like your take on Necromancy. That's brilliant.

What do you all make of Dark magic then? Is it just "ethically" not used / learned /taught by the elves to the humans or is it a gift of knowledge only passed from darker powers?

jh

Forgot the 2 obvious ones...


High Magic: skillful manipulation of the separate winds. A prism breaks light into different colours. High Magic uses the different colours of magic together to create a balanced effect, dosing each wind separately. Highly powerful, very stable, allows the caster to achieve pretty much any effect he desires. Downsides that we know of: it takes ages to master correctly, and a mind beyond what human races can normally achieve. Taking it effectively outside of the reach of mortal races.

Dark Magic: manipulation of the purest essence of Magic that leaks into the world. The ability to tap into this power gives the same level of power as High Magic. It uses the pure stuff of magic, or gathers all available winds together and crushes it back into it's primal form before using the power. The upside is that it is much easier to learn than High Magic (even untrained/isolated humans figure it out on their own sometimes). The downside is that it is highly unstable: likely to cause side-effects or have a totally different effect as intended. Mutations/Corruption are unavoidable as you continue to use it. Which is how warlocks operate.

For me, Dhar was both not taught & even explicitly forbidden because of the fact that Teclis saw the danger of having a powerful race (lots of people, quick breeding, fairly intelligent) with a low resistance to corruption, pick up a double-edged weapon.

Are the Gods real?

Unless the players are going to meet the actual gods it doesn't really matter. Fact is though that all kinds of manifestations of the gods do exist, and for that reason the gods are real. Mutations could be explained as radioactivity, but it doesn't really change the fact that in the old world mutation is real and believed to be a manifestation of the chaos gods.

An exciting story could however be about an emperial scientist who has proof that the dark gods do not exist, but that mutation is a disease and it's possible to cure it. Heresy of course.

But the history of the old world very clearly shows a tangible force from the north influencing the world. Was Sigmar real? The history about him is certainly real.

I would never answer this question for the players. It shall remain a mystery. Even if the players see the manifestation of Father Nurgle, then no one will know if it's just a poser.

If the world believes something then it IS real. If you believe in ghosts then they are real, if they somehow influence your life. That influence the belief of ghosts have on your life is very real.

Think I agree with gallows, I'd never really let people know. I might let them be told stuff by npc's etc, but never as GM - I like the option of being able to change my mind; I don't think the whole magic/Gods thing has to appear completely rational, just kind of hang together loosely (look at the apparent quantum/macro paradox in the real world).

On a side note, have you noticed how little stuff actually stays in your players heads after a couple of sessions? I'm constantly reminding my players about stuff they've done. Perhaps it's just my group, but I reckon I could tell them that the god Khorne was an anthromorphization of blue cheese and they'd be merrily eating Stilton only two weeks later

I tend to agree with Doc. I don't really define anything until it is relevant and my players progress the story in a manner that begs for some sort of information. And hell, even that might be misinformation. I do like Nisses definitions though.

For me, a long time d&d/d20/pathfinder player, warhammer is a game I play when I get away from the more hard definitions. Those games (in my campaigns) involve stronger tactical elements and settings that are well understood by my group. Warhammer on the other hand gives me a chance to really explore my darkest story elements with rules that tend to embrace group creativity.

As for the gods themselves, they do exist though I have never had any direct interaction.

For the Warhammer setting, essentially magic and blessings come from the same source - the chaos gates.

The gods can comunicate and give blessing to people in the same way that the chaos gods do (just dont say that near a witchhunter...). thats also the main reason that Aenarion was against Caledor Dragontamer's plan for creating the great vortex - it would limit his power as asyuran's avatar.

But geneally speaking magicand the gods are beyond the ken of the mortal races, the Slann could it explain it (but wont) and some high elf loremasters could get close to the truth but not all of it - andthey certainly wontshare that knowledge to the other races.