First off, let me say I hate to be the guy who is bitching about something awesome, and I'm not certain whether or not this is technically a rules questions but here we go anyway.

In my opinion for 200xp Wolf Scouts get to pay to be screwed. A dubious honor indeed. Now don't get me wrong, they get access to some pretty awesome stuff: unique talents, melee talents, and skills a lot earlier than otherwise. I like those things, I do. I promise.

The problem comes in when you look at what they get for the 200 xp, which amounts to a big bag of buggery and a nice pistol. You get an altered advance table which, sure, gives you some other stuff for cheap but changes something that was cheap into something that is very expensive. You also get to lose any and all special abilities, because switching out one skill for another and changing your advance table IS NOT A SPECIAL ABILITY, and really Wolf Scouts should get bolter mastery, I mean they do use bolters almost exclusively like any good tac-marines. You may like to bring up that you have the option of switching out to scout armor whenever you want... but since it was too sh*tty to have a requisition cost in the first place I don't see why you wouldn't have been able to do that at any point anyway, so that fits squarely in the not a bonus category. Also numerically a Raven Guard is a little more stealthy than a Wolf Scout...... even though the Raven Guard is in power armor and the Wolf Scout is in scout carapace...that means every single member of an entire chapter has the ability to be more stealthy in better armor than a stealth veteran in stealth armor, something about that just seems stupid to me. And to finish this out lets also not forget that by SPENDING 200 XP you lose the ability now and forever to by any talent that is at all related to Fellowship. So to review you spend xp to get the ability to spend more xp and get a nice shiny new pistol, but you also lose your potent special ability and can in no way be an awesome leader, so nice pistol and big bag of buggery.

To compare so that I don't sound like some whiner let's flip back a few pages and look at the Sanguinary Priest. For 500 xp you get access to an admittedly shorter list of goodies, but you get to keep your old special ability but you also get a new one, that among other things ups your Fellowship by 5 for the cost that buying up just fellowship alone would have done, oh and that new special ability is also totally badass, you also get two really good pieces of equipment AND access to two really awesome talents that few people can even get, and some hard to come by skills. Is there a downside to spending this 500 xp? Yes a very minor one that MIGHT cause your kill team to lose A TINY amount of Renown if you die and there are other Blood Angels in your Kill-team. So for 300 more Xp a Blood Angel gets an infinitely better deal than the Wolf Scout.

And just a little more proof, another Rank 1 only advanced Specialty which is totally rocking is the Tyrannic War Veteran, who for 1000xp gets a clip of really good special ammo as standard issue, round out their war gear so that they are good at either ranged or hand to hand combat, get a cool special ability without having to give up their starting one, and get access to some really good talents and skills, some of which are unique, and the ability to share the coolest of those talents with their buddies for the low cost of 1 Cohesion.... oh and they have NO DOWNSIDE. No downside and the possibility to be able to dodge hordes..... I mean.... come on, how do the Wolf Scouts even compare to that?

The short answer is: they don't.

I love the Space Wolves, and I understand that they have some pretty stand out stuff, and while I do not want them to be overpowered (it takes all the fun out of showing up all the other battle-brothers if you have an easier job of it) I do want to not get screwed over, and it really does seem like the Wolf Scouts are getting screwed over. That said I'm still playing one because I love the fluff and I love the attitude, but I wish it didn't feel like I'm being penalized for liking the lone wolf style character.

But as a fresh Rank 1 character with no extra xp when stacked up against a Sanguinary Priest or a Tyrannic War Vet, or hell to some degree even a kill marine or a Black Shield of the same level Wolf Scouts feel lacking. And even after you buy up both unique talents (2,500 xp later) if you are standing next to a Raven Guard he's still better at being stealthy than you are, and harder to kill, and has a special ability from his Specialty, which might make him better at doing pretty much anything you can.

It sucks is what I'm saying.

TempestSatori said:

You don't get an altered advance table, you get an additional advance table and it's awesome. As for Bolter Mastery, there needs to be some internal balance. You can't get a super-duper advance table tacked on for 200 xp and then expect to get handed out Bolter Mastery too on top of Behind Enemy Lines.

TempestSatori said:

I would rank Raven Guard as superior in stealth to Wolf Scouts, normally. So I am fine with the way it is.

TempestSatori said:

Okay Wolf Scouts. They are reclusive Elite Scouts. Let's have a look at the crunch:

You pay measly 200 xp, the Tacticals Special Ability and Fel-based skills. And for it you get the ability to have ridiculously good stealth, a good ambush buff, a melee build (which Tacticals lack until endgame) to complement your shooting skills and a silenced bolt pistol with accurate, as well as Demolition available from Rank 1.

Yeah, it feels right and I think it's a quite good deal too. Unless you feel you need Fel-skills or Bolter mastery/Tactical Expertise by all means, it's a good choice for a SW Tactical. If the GM allows one of the new advanced specialties that is.

Alex

They do get an alternate Characteristic Advance table.

Accurate on a pistol doesn't give you the possibility of extra damage on a good hit when you aim like it does on a basic weapon though, and a lot of people forget that.

And an entire chapter should never be better at something than a specialist unit, otherwise there's very little point for that unit.

And for a measly 500xp the Blood Angels get a +5 to a stat, better starting equipment, and an EXTRA special ability that rocks, so don't tell me that asking to not LOSE a special ability for 200xp is out of the question, and yeah it is about internal balance, that's why i put examples of other things and their cost versus usefulness. I'll grant that the stuff they can BUY is nice but it still has to be bought, and its nice, I'm not sure its as nice as Bolter Mastery or at least some special ability. Behind Enemy Lines on its own for what it does is worthless, its two trades and a penalty so that you are literally not getting anything, there is no positive growth from that special ability. Sure by taking the advance you get access to some good stuff but again you have to buy it to make it worth becoming a Wolf Scout and even then the stuff is pretty good, it isn't great.

When I looked at both of the other Rank 1 Advanced Specialties I was like man they really get a lot for the xp, afterwards when I looked at the Wolf Scout it was just disappointing.

TempestSatori said:

Unless it explicitly says otherwise it's in addition to the advance tables that the PC had available before selectiong the advanced specialty.

TempestSatori said:

It's an entire specialist chapter.

TempestSatori said:

Neither +5 Fel, nor getting Frenzy is getting anyone excited. And they are by default Apothecaries and therefore have the most lacklustre basic specialty advances of all.

I'd rather play a Wolf Scout, thanks.

TempestSatori said:

And overall a Wolf Scout is better than a Sanguinary Priest or an Imperial Fist Tactical.

TempestSatori said:

You got +5 AG (-> Stealth, Dodge, Movement, Initiative) and surrender Fel. I know a lot of players who wouldn't mind that trade. And Patient Hunter is über-good.

TempestSatori said:

It's the combination that is great. You build a good shootist via Tactical advances (Might Shot and Bolter Drill), can add to that Lightning Strike and Counter-Attack. Plus you have super-Stealth and Demolition skills to make you the consummate fighter. And you have pay next to nothing to unlock those fancy advances.

Normal Tacticals would chop off their arm to be able to get Swift Attack/Lightning Attack from Rank 1, especially since the price isn't too steep for what those talents bring. It makes the Wolf Scout potentially more aggressive in combat than their Assault Marine coutner-part.

Unless you can show me where it says that the Wolf Scout's advances replace the Tactical's advances, I can't agree with your assessment at all.

Alex

I agree that the pistol thing sucks. The limitations on Accurate are pretty dumb and don't come across as necessary for balance, hence I've house-ruled them away. I do need to do more testing with heavy weapons but an Accurate sniper-pistol is still barely going to plink against things that a full-on sniper rifle is going to splortch. Best thing about the pistol is it has a semiauto option, where Stalker bolters do not.

FWIW everything is better than RAW Imperial Fists, unless you're a Fist Librarian in which case you gain the Quality: #winning.

Ok Alex I'm trying my level best not to have this become just a bunch of hate rhetoric but **** son you are blind. Under Behind Enemy Lines it says "In addition, the Battle-Brother uses Table 2-9: Wolf Scout Characteristic Advances in place of the normal Deathwatch Tactical Marine Characteristic Advances, and is trained in the Shadowing Skill instead of the Command Skill." So that seems pretty clear cut to me, also ITS IN BOLD on the page. That would be an alternate characteristic advance scheme, like I said before.

And patient hunter is good, but it isnt great, it LETS you stealth effectively, thats all. And as for the Raven Guard being a whole chapter of specialists.... well what about their stealth specialists? Are you saying they don't have any? Are you saying that every Battle-Brother of that chapter is in fact the most stealthy character that can possibly exist? That no one, not even a veteran stealth specialist with at least a century's worth of experience could out stealth even their Devestators? Because again, to me, that's just stupid. Even if that is the case, even it was written to be that way, its stupid. Yes Raven Guard are sneaky, that's what they do but for an entire Chapter to be better than anyone else could possibly be seems.... well stupid, but also poorly written and unrealistic, especially when you take into consideration the fact that they do it in heavy, loud, insensate power armor.

And the Imperial Fist Tac-Marine have better access to tactics, uses cover better, and has some great talents they can get from Chapter Advances not to mention the 10% better chance to avoid Fear and Corruption, and Bolter Drill from their attack pattern and can get Eye of Vengeance starting, oh and they shoot better and do more damage per shot because they can take Bolter Mastery, which means if they at Rank one full auto something and hit with all the shots then they do 2d10+15 (or 1d10+19) more damage than would a Wolf Scout on account of the extra total hit and the extra 2 damage PER SHOT. And if they snipe then with Eye of Vengeance they get extra Pen per degree of success. So no a Wolf Scout isnt better in every way than a Imperial Fist Tac-Marine.

And its not getting Frenzy that's great for the Sanguinary Priest, its the fact that they don't have to waste a turn going into it. And you're trying to tell me that getting 2 more points of Toughness Bonus, a 10% better chance to hit in melee, and an extra 2 points of damage per hit isnt something to get excited about? Oh AND they give that bonus to ANY OTHER BLOOD ANGEL in support range. Yes that is freaking awesome.

And if you're playing a Wolf Scout right the +5 Agility doesnt do **** for their stealth. I'm not saying that the build needs Fellowship, but I am saying that without buying any advances they lose a whole lot more than they gain, and I don't think it should be that way. They are to date the ONLY advances Specialty that loses options by going into it and not only that but then on top of that they lose their special ability for going into it and dont get a special ability back in return. Because agian Behind Enemy Lines isnt a Special Ability I don't care what it says, its two TRADES, which means you net no gain, and when everyone else GETS something I can't help but feel cheated.

I'll say this and then be done, I don't want this to turn ugly, and I find that things on forums often do. If FFG had upped the price to become a Wolf Scout to 1000xp and then included the effects of Patient Hunter in the Behind Enemy Lines ability I would't be bitching, because then at least it would have fit into the same schemata as every other Advanced Specialty out there. You pay xp and you get something cool and access to a list of other things you can get, that is the way it is for every other one that is the way it needs to be for the Wolf Scouts.

TempestSatori said:

You use the alternative Characteristics Table on p. 59, which is actually Table 2-8. 2-9's table name has nothing to do with Characteristics at all, while 2-8's does. Note the differences in the names. Under Enemy Lines is pretty clearly referring to Table 2-8 by name despite the typo in the number reference.

Calling it 2-9 is a typo at worst. Deathwatch doesn't do alternate charts for skill advances; it does additional charts except for Black Shields. And the Black Shield rules page explicitly says "The Black Shield Advances replace the Space Marine’s Chapter-specific advances. His normal Space Marine, Speciality, and Deathwatch Advance options remain unchanged."

There is no such all-encompassing replacement notation with the Wolf Scout. The Wolf Scout simply says "the Battle-Brother uses Table 2–9: Wolf Scout Characteristic Advances in place of the normal Deathwatch Tactical Marine Characteristic Advances." Emphasis mine.

Seriously, note the names of the tables, not the numbers. "Wolf Scout Characteristic Advances" is a distinct table from "Wolf Scout Advances."

I think the confusion is that you're referring to an alternate Characteristics-only advance table, while Alex thinks you're talking about replacing all tables (i.e. both the Characteristics table and the skill/talent advances table).

A Wolf Scout uses a distinct Characteristic Advance table from normal Tacmarines, applicable only to raising Characteristics. The Wolf Scout then has access to the normal Tacmarine skill/talent advance table in addition to the Wolf Scout skill/talent advance table, minus any Talents which conflict with the restrictions of Behind Enemy Lines (i.e. Talents with a certain Fel prereq). Easy.

Satori means realizing all agitation is in the end in vain.

Alex

TempestSatori said:

Well, this isn't what I intended. I can't give an official answer - I don't have the authority to do that, so if you want an official answer, contact FFG directly - but I can give my own commentary on the matter as the writer in this particular instance.

The characteristic advances table changes. The advances table (with skills and talents on) is an additional table. Oh, and for reference, it's in bold because it's a table reference. FFG's formatting guidelines require that it be in bold.

TempestSatori said:

Frenzy isn't all that great - amongst other things, you lose a lot of control over the character, which is why the Blood Angel Assault Marine in my group stopped using Frenzy after he found himself charging a Carnifex by himself against his better judgement.

Frenzy is a very situational perk, and one that can be easily exploited by an intelligent enemy or made into a liability by an awkward situation. Beyond that, how many Blood Angels are you likely to have in your Kill-Team?

Regarding scouting - any Space Marine in Scout armour can scout effectively if the character is careful - a decent natural agility, inherent training in Move Silently and Concelament, and the bonuses conferred by Scout Armour are quite useful here. Wolf Scouts get it a little better, with cheaper Agility advances than a Tactical Marine. At higher ranks, however, Patient Hunter becomes very, very potent, as it ties into the Space Wolves' Wolf Senses solo mode ability and thus lets them benefit from re-rolls and Unnatural Perception (which, as all stealth-based tests are inherently opposed, makes Wolf Scouts both very proficient infiltrators and also very proficient at locating enemies trying to do the same thing).

I have a Wolf scout in my group, so to give my perspective:

The good: Best Scouts in the game (compared to "best at being Stealthy", where Raven Guard has them beat), great additional advances table which is good enough that I decided to nerf their access to melee talents a bit (lightning attack before assault marines get it, albeit at a greater cost? a bit too much for me), stalker bolt pistol is really good, requisitionless access to a nice bit of extra amor.

the bad: the agility bonus when they don't actually use agility for the important things anymore doesn't really make sense. Especially when the in-character reason for the bonus is "they are so good at being stealthy so they get extra agility", but then they don't use agility for stealth anymore? Not bad, but weird. As noted above, access to powerful melee talents a bit too early for my tastes (I bound them to the assault marines talent advances. Wolf scouts get acces to their melee talents one rank later than the assault marines). Sudden Attack and the stealth skill advances seem overpriced.

I didn't actually compare the table numbers the writeups referred to, so I never had the idea Behind the Enemy Lines might be referring to the skill and talent advances table. It quite explicidly refers to the characteristic advances table.

No, the write-up is quite good. One of my friends who always wanted to play the Space Wolf Librarian Rune Priest had changed his mind when he heard Wolf Scouts would be in FF. I don't think he's going to be disappointed.(Personally I consider Patient Hunter a bit OP. Rerolls for Stealth and Perception? OMG.)

Now all we got to do is bombard FFG with emails until they ask Nathan to re-write the original IF chaprer rules.

Alex

Nathan, it's a typo in the table number. The table names make it very clear.

Gokerz said:

What do you consider really good about the pistol beyond "it's quiet?"

Re: Agi - you still use it for movement and initiative and Dodge. Even more important when you have armor with less AP than the rest of your KT.

Kshatriya said:

It's stylish as hell!

Besides, attacking from stealth is quite powerful, so the ability to stay stealthed for longer while killing shouldn't be underestimated.

Accurate is helpful even without the extra damage (the increased accuracy will translate to a small increase in average damage anyway).

As the sound suppression and the Accurate quality are the only realy differences to the normal boltpistol, there isn't really anything else that could be really good about it compared the the basic version.

Kshatriya said:

As I said, it mostly makes the in-character explanation for why they get the increase nonsensical.

They don't get increased Agility because they are so fast, because they have especially quick reactions or because they can dodge so well. They explicidly get the increase because they are that good at stealth tactics... for which they don't use Agility.

It's a minor quibble, don't take it too seriously

Where do you guys get the idea that they don't use AG for Stealth from? The section says that they treat those skills as if they were Per-based skills. That is something different from saying that for Wolf Scouts they are Per-based. They remain AG-based but the buff by Wolf Senses transfers onto Stealth skills as if it was a Per-based skill.

That is why the talent is god-mode good.

Alex

Well, as I understand that passage: if I don't roll them using perception, than I am not treating them as if they were perception based.

ak-73 said:

The Characteristic table does replace the Tactical Marine's, but the advancements (ie skills, talents etc) do not.

And having played as an Apothecary I can agree say they get one of the single most rubbish advancement tables out there. Rank 2-4 are awesome-dull-sauce. Aside from Sure Strike (which is interesting, but not a big deal), everything is skills. Ok, medicae is essential, but not exactly interesting, and tech use is nice (except every one can get it at rank 1... so you can wait 2 ranks to get it at a 300xp discount. Whoa!). The other skills are incredibly campaign specific (I took at least one level in all of them... never used them). And as a secondary meleer (based on the cheap weapon skill and the various melee talents) you don't get a melee talent until rank 5.

Swift/Lightning attack at rank 1. Oh, god, it's the Assault Marine all over again. I guess FFG decided to fix that balance problem by just making even more specialities massively unblanced.

Frenzy... meh. Frankly I have found that just tends to get characters killed. First session we ever played the Blood Angel Assault Marine burned two fate points because of it (we allow the "Burn a Fate Point and stand back up with d5 wounds" from Ascension). He never used that again. Didn't save him, as he managed to kill himself while trying fancy things with explosives twice , but he survived longer than if he had used Frenzy a lot. It also tends to make your character run on auto-pilot, so makes combat a bit less interesting.

I will accept the Raven Guard are better stealthers. I was a Raven Guard, using various different rules as things changed, towards the end changing to the new rules. After rebuilding my character to match First Founding I was silent moving at a re-rollable 100+ while in power armour (rank 5). Not that I ever used the ability as none of the other players could stealth to save themselves (I really don't like the flat -30 for power armour... it basically makes it pointless unless you really devote to it).

borithan said:

They should probably have made Guerilla Training into an upgrade for armor, that Raven Guard can buy through a specific and much cheaper Signature Wargear advance. Maybe they'd get a talent to get more out of that armor upgrade.

In most sources, Raven Guards are described as using special upgrades for their armours anyway, so would have been a better fit for the fluff.

Basing their ability to ignore PA penalties solely on "very good stealth training" does seem a bit over the top and hard to swallow.

It has been discussed quite much now.. And i'm only going for my pov.

My fellas' and I have discussed this, and we are quite much into facts/history in WH40k. We are 8 ppl who know quite much about the world ect.

We haven't played that much, but as the teams GM, i see the Wolf scout's as a quite good choice for a team. Even more if teamed up with a Raven Guard Lib.

They have a strong utility in the group, and even more if the he can keep silent and shadowing around the enemy.

Gokerz said:

Just got First Founding.

Well it wouldn't be the first talent, that is a mixture of training and equiptment, although it doesn't mention it. And by extension if you wanted you could let the whole team have it as an elite advance for increased cost if your team is that way inclined.

For the RG vs WS, the +30 difference (-10 hulking PA vs +20 you get with Scout armour) is significant at low levels at least.

ak-73 said:

I think I see what you're saying and it's true that the potential there is very good. Emphasis on potential. A chargen Wolf Scout is not going to have a great niche: not as useful in Squad Mode OR Solo Mode as a normal Tacmarine while lacking the nice talents that will make the character bloom into awesome sauce later. It's a weird place to be. Obviously with more XP the character will be in a much better place but starting out there's really not much to stand up and get excited about.

Ok, well because I see no compelling argument to the contrary I think I'm going to house rule it in my games that Wolf Scouts are obligated to take Bolter Mastery instead of losing their special ability or having the choice to take Tactical Expertise, as they are known for being deadly marksmen and awesome snipers as well as being good in a brawl, but they are standoffish and taciturn.

My reasons for this are very simple, game balance and fluff are both on my side here. Because no one else loses their special ability, but wolf Scouts are pigeon holed into not being sociable so instead of making them LOSE POWER, I will simply ensure that they are in line with the fluff.

If NO1-H3r3 might want to lend a voice to this, but I'm not sure if I should make the advance cost a little more or not, but I think making WS's take Bolter Mastery is the best solution.

Oh and just to pitch this one out there, Frenzy is a great tool, much like a Frag Grenade, if used properly it makes a lot of things easier, if used incorrectly or even mildly thoughtlessly it will get you killed. I had a Feral Guardsmen in a Dark Heresy game that stayed alive because of strategic uses of Frenzy, I didn't Frenzy every fight, or even at the start of fights when I did use it, but when I knew the field of battle and I knew that either we were going to win no matter what I did, or I knew that we weren't going to win unless I Frenzied. So again, I'm not saying its the be all end all but when you don't have to waste a turn using it, you gain so many more strategic options.

ak-73 said:

Depends on whether they're in Power Armour or not, which frankly is the only real boon the Raven Guard (okay, buying Silent Move and Concealment +whatever earlier and for cheaper is nice too) have over anyone else when it comes to being stealthy.

And in Power Armour, which their special Talent, they're still taking a -10, while Astartes Scout armour grants +10 concealment and Deathwatch Scout armour inflicts penalties on Auspex and other assorted attempts to scan for the wearer.

I'd increase the cost if they keep Bolter Mastery. 500 at least. Maybe more.