If a squad of axis zombies start off hidden then use fast to move two squares and the first square puts it in line of sight of an allied unit within weapon range but the second square the zombies end up on is out of line of sight. Does the allied unit get to interupt the zombies movement and roll for a reactive fire?

I'm not sure as there is no clear way of knowing from the revised rules. I'd say "no, the opponent wouldn't be able to go for reactive fire". Reason could be that Reactive Fire is usually performed after the first MOVE action. The first MOVE action doesn't end until the miniatures land on the second square, due to their FAST ability.

In the game world this can be described as them being too fast for the opponent to notice them and/or react, although such explanations are nice fluff they matter not to the logic of the rules.

Ulrike Meinhof said:

Revised Core, Pg 16, it says that, "Immediately after the Blackhawk's movement, the Axis player declares that he will attempt Reactive fire..."

From this, it appears reactive fire checks (and decisions) come after a unit has completed a "Move" action... or at least that's how I play it.

Nope - The reactive fire, when using fast, takes place as the end of 'all movement'. So, they would be safe. Same goes for the apes with Marcus if they were charging and the charge (Assault) phase concluded with the unit being out of line of sight or weapons range.

Khankore said:

Not that one again. Reactive Fire only takes places "at the end of all movement" in the case of a Charging unit. If it is just moving twice, it takes places between the two moves, though it's still not clear if the added Fast square must take place in the 1st or 2nd movement.

Loophole Master said:

Without it being specified, it adds interesting tactical considerations, choosing which action to use the bonus movement on could allow a unit to pick and choose what units might be able to use reactive fire against it, as well as when they could do so.

Move one space, and them move two to enter a building for cover, or even move across a street out of line of sight. Other times, the reverse could be true, and starting with a two space move gives greater advantages.

I don't mind allowing both options, because it gives players more tactical choices to make. Making me think more when I play is a good thing.

Yeah, in my opinion it should be up to the moving player to decide whether Fast is applied to the 1st or 2nd Move.

Loophole Master said:

Two rules seem to contradict each other, "Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all
of its movement." Page 17, Rev. Core Rule Book

Would reactive fire would come before movement when attacking a unit that is performing an Attack + Move + Fast?

If a unit performs the action sequence Attack + MOVE, Reactive Fire must occur
immediately after the Attack action. - Page 16, Rev. Core Rule Book

I would think the second rule would apply since the Fast ability has not come into play until after the Attack.

As I've stated multiple times, that bit about "Reactive Fire takes place after all movement" is written as a subsection of the Charge explanation. It only concerns a unit that's charging. It makes no sense to consider that an absolute rule.

Loophole Master said:

Ok but its quoted under units with fast.

Yes, but units with Fast using Charge.

My understanding of the rule is if a unit has Fast they cannot be Targeted until they complete all their movement. So they would move 2+Fast. The Fast united would not be targeted after the first Move like units without Fast.

That's where I don't agree with you. The Reactive Fire rules are divided into 5 sections, marked by skulls: M+A, A+M, M+M, Charge, Sustained Fire.

- In the Move+Move section, they clearly say that RF must occur immediately after the first Move action.

- In the Charge section they have a little note that says if a unit has Fast, RF takes place after all movement.

That doesn't mean that the note in the Charge section should be applied to the M+M section, where no such aside was stated. Granted, they should have explained how Fast works with RF on a M+M, but we can easily arrive on a logical conclusion on that based on the rules, and it is NOT to wait until all the movement is done.

I have to disagree with you on this one, the note provided for the Fast skill is part of all of the examples in the Revised Core Ruleset for reactive fire, its not just part of the Charge example.

Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all
of its movement.

If the note above from the Revised rule set said that a unit with Fast and Charge then i would agree with you. But the note above only states a unit with Fast, you are injecting the Charge rule in that note and it doesn't exist there.

My thinking is that the skill Fast makes the units so fast that you don't see them until they stop or are just way to hard to hit with even reactive fire, or something along those lines is why they have that note in the Revised Core Rules.

Fast does not make units so fast you can't see them until they finish moving, or all of the Jump capable units, with a higher movement capability, would have the same capability.

Loophole Master's point is because of the positioning of the note you are referencing. That note is under the rules for using Reactive Fire against a unit that is charging.

Consider the specifications above the rules on using Reactive Fire against a charging unit, where a unit using two Move actions is addressed; the example shows a Blackhawk as the target, which is a unit that has Fast. There, it is specifies the Blackhawk is an eligible target after it has completed its first Move action. If Fast made a unit ineligible for Reactive Fire until it had completed all of its movement every time, the Blackhawk would never be an eligible target for Reactive Fire until it had completed its movement, yet the rule specifies it can be targeted after its first move.

The rules for Reactive Fire versus a Charge specify the attack comes after the second Move, but before the close combat attack. Fast had to be addressed, because it gives a unit an additional space of movement, which could be argued by some as being the 'second move.' By addressing the situation, it clarifies that any unit charging can only be attacked by Reactive Fire after it has completed all movement, but before the Charge close combat attack is resolved.

That note is not positioned as a global note for all Reactive Fire versus a Fas unit, but only under the rules section for a unit that is using Charge.

delete duplicate post

Loophole Master said:

Agreed. It should be a tactical advantage.

Gimp said:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one, I dont feel this is just part of the Charge example, its part of the whole Possible Situations For Reactive Fire , under all of the examples that they give you, if it was a note that only apllied to Charge they would of put that in the note somewhere along the lines of only applies to units with Fast&Charge. Your whole point with units that can fly with two movement have absolutely nothing to do with the Fast skill, just means you can move two squares slowly not using fast or be able to move fast cause you can move two squares.

examples of skills below.

Fast

A unit with this skill is exceptionally swift

Charge

A unit with this skill can charge forward at a blistering pace!

I guess I view both of these as being basically the same thing so they would get the same reactive fire rules?

Well, they are not the same thing, and thus get different rules.

As Gimp said, in the very example for Move+Move, they have a unit WITH FAST (the Blackhawk) being interrupted between moves to receive Reactive Fire. WHat more do you need? Unit with Fast does a Move action (which can contain the extra Fast square, if desired), suffers Reactive Fire, then goes on to its second Move Action (which can contain the extra Fast square, if it hasn't been used already). That is what's written in the rules.

Loophole Master said:

These are all basic examples with no examples of using skills with the actions, while they shouldnt of used a unit that had a skill like Fast in the examples it is what it is. The only example they give with a skill is with Charge that states after all movements. then after this they put the note that it applys to units with Fast also that its after all movements. I guess I could be a prick and say "What more do you need?" also!! Not quite sure why your getting so upset over this but im starting to get a little tired of this argument so I sent off the question to Fantasy Flight Games to just end the argument already. We can interpret the rules both from different perspectives, just not sure why you think you are 100% right

smith2332 said:

I'm upset? I'm not the one calling others "prick".

I sent an email to FFG about this and received the following clarification (which I was surprised by, but not because of the move+move+fast)

I asked the same question I asked on the board and received this response:

"If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all of its movement. If a unit with Fast skill performs an ATTACK + MOVE action, the unit may move out of range before Reactive Fire takes effect, if possible. For units without the Fast skill, Reactive Fire would take place after the attack, but before the unit moves.

I hope this has answered your question. Happy Gaming!" - Zach T (not sure if I should use his full last name or not) Assoc. Miniatures Games Producer

So yeah, my assumption was wrong that a unit with Fast performing an ATTACK + MOVE could be attacked inbetween the ATTACK & the MOVE. You have to wait until the unit with FAST completes all of its actions.

Hope this clears this up!

If they intended the rule to apply to all situations, it should have been listed before the examples, or after all of the examples. It isn't. It is listed in the rules section regarding Charge, before the rules section on Sustained Attack, and not included in the In Summary section where a global exception should be listed.

The argument that the Blackhawk is simply not being used with Fast is falacious, because it is inherent with the unit. If it were not moving using Fast for a move of two spaces, it would be exposing itself to Reactive Fire without reason, as a two space move could move it through the Reactive Fire area before Reactive Fire could take place. If the two space move left it exposed to the Reactive Fire unit, moving one space twice would be giving up the possibility of an Attack action against the unit using Reactive Fire, which would be foolish.

The answer on a Fast unit doing an Attack + Move being immune to Reactive Fire is a significant change from the rules as they are written. The language of the rules section is rather clear on the subject. Taking a note imbedded in one rules area, and applying it to all other circumstances where it is not noted, is not proper use of English. The rules of context for the English language do not allow a different interpretation. If it is to be something different, it would need to be a significant errata to change the language as written.

As for Fast being more rapid than Jump; how do you explain a movement 33% faster to be less rapid? If Fast is described as exceptionally swift, Jump's 33% increase on that is a significant improvement on speed. If a vehicle can only move 45 miles per hour, and is considered swift, a vehicle moving 60 miles per hour would be remarkable. If a Fast unit can move immune to Reactive Fire, then a faster Jump unit should have a similar immunity for the rules to make sense.

Charge is also significantly more than Fast, as a unit can Charge using Fast to move three spaces and still attack. Without Charge, Fast would only allow a two space move with an attack, or a three space move without the ability to attack.

While I can accept that someone at FFG has responded with an alternate rules interpretation, until that change from the rules as written makes it into an errata, I'll keep playing with the rules as they are written.

We've gotten some strange ideas from FFG responses before, that have never made it into the FAQ as official. With the rules as written for this, I expect this response will never make it there, either.

This rule is very clear: "Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all
of its movement." Page 17, Rev. Core Rule Book

You cannot use REACTIVE FIRE on a unit using MOVE + MOVE + FAST until after the final movement of the unit. CHARGE does not matter.

As far as ATTACK + MOVE + FAST and not being able to use REACTIVE FIRE until after the final move is a surprise.

Here are my thoughts and the message I sent to FFG for clarification:

Hello,
A fellow gamer in my group asked a rule clarification that makes very little sense. Here is the body of that email:

Hello Nicholas,

You recently asked a question about Dust Tactics:

Rule Question:
Two rules seem to contradict each other, "Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all
of its movement." Page 17, Rev. Core Rule Book

Would reactive fire would come before movement when attacking a unit that is performing an Attack + Move + Fast?

If a unit performs the action sequence Attack + MOVE, Reactive Fire must occur
immediately after the Attack action. - Page 16, Rev. Core Rule Book

I would think the second rule would apply since the Fast ability has not come into play until after the Attack. Perhaps it should be reworded to:
Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, and performs 2 MOVE actions plus FAST, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all of its movement."

If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all of its movement. If a unit with the Fast skill performs an ATTACK+MOVE
action, the unit may move out of range before Reactive Fire takes effect, if possible. For units without the Fast skill, Reactive Fire would take place after
the attack, but before the unit moves.

I hope this has answered your question. Happy Gaming!

Zach Tewalthomas

I fail to see how this clarification is in line with the rules of Reactive Fire. Reactive Fire takes place between actions, never after all actions are complete. That would just be a normal activation. I feel that the rule on page 17 of the Revised Core set was referring to the rule that move+fast cannot be broken up by Reactive Fire, hence all the movement must be completed before reactive fire takes place. It was just worded poorly in the Revised Core Set.

I hope these examples will provide clarity to the issue:

How Reactive Fire functions:

[action 1] {reactive fire} [action 2]

MOVE/MOVE Options:
• [move] {reactive fire} [move]
• [move+fast] {reactive fire} [move]
• [move] {reactive fire} [move+fast]

ATTACK/MOVE Options:
• [attack] {reactive fire} [move]
• [attack] {reactive fire} [move+fast]

MOVE/ATTACK Options:
• [move] {reactive fire} [attack]
• [move+fast] {reactive fire} [attack]

SUSSTAINED ATTACK Options:
• No Reactive Fire Allowed

Reactive Fire will always take place between actions. The fast ability is still a part of the actions, and therefore cannot be broken up by reactive fire. Again, I think it was just worded very poorly in the Revised Core Set.

If that is not the case then it seems that Reactive Fire is not possible against units with the Fast ability, at least with the Attack/Move and Move/Move options since reactive fire will happen after the unit has finished its activation.

Thanks for your time,

Justin