Completely agree with you, Justin. If for a Fast unit doing Attack+Move or Move+Move Reactive Fire only takes place after it has done EVERYTHING, then it's not really reactive fire, is it? You would be a moron to waste your activation on a roll of the die, when you could just wait for your turn and then do a sustained attack.

I'm baffled by this response by FFG. It's just nonsensical. I hope I'm able to get a second opinion on this...

Loophole Master said:

Thanks Loophole! I was thinking the exact same thing about FFG's response. That would be way too many exceptions for a simple rule that is already very clear in how it functions. Plus, as I noticed in the previous posts, people really open things up to fallacious interpretations then get really really upset if anybody disagrees. It's a simple matter of looking at the rules and applying logic, though it makes it infinitely harder and more open to fallacious interpretations when the rules are not clear to begin with, such as this note about fast on page 17 of the Revised Core Set rulebook. This game definitely has this happening more often than it should. Look at the W-serum ability. 3 rulebooks, back and forth on the boards, and finally it's clarified in the most recent FAQ (with my example, I am proud to say and happy they published).

I will be sure to post their response when I hear back from them. Good Gaming!!

Don't know why such a possible simple rule can cause so much confusion. Would there be any issues if the rules were simply: " One unit can attempt Reaction Fire immediately after a Move action is completed"

That wouldn't work in situations like Attack+Move or Charge. The basis of the rule is very simple: Reactive Fire takes place in the middle of the target's actions. This gets a little iffy with all the little skills and stuff, but the basis remains the same: do something, get reactive fire, do something else. That is why I don't understand why anyone would advocate that in certain cases Reactive Fire would take place at the very end of the target's activation, after it has done everything it wanted, and it's become pointless to use Reactive Fire.

Jiltedtoo said:

Please calm down and read what people are saying. The note you reference is not in question. Everyone can read it.

Where that note is for context within the rules as they are written is the crux of the matter.

That note is not in the summary of points about Reactive Fire. It is not in the initial discussion of Reactive Fire. It is placed within the bullet for Reactive Fire against a Charge, right before the next bullet regarding Reactive Fire and Sustained Attack.

If it were placed before the examples, I would agree with you.

If it were placed in the summary after the examples in the summary of points, I would agree with you.

Because it is placed within a specific rules example section , the rules of context for the English language do not allow a rules as written interpretation other than what we have been espousing; that the note references Fast units during a Charge cannot receive Reactive Fire until after they have finished all of their movement and before they Attack.

Other rules consideration support this.

The specific rationale for Reactive Fire and Sustained Attack support that interpretation, when they note Reactive Fire cannot be used after a Sustained Attack. It cannot be used, because there is no further action to interrupt. If Fast allowed all movement before Reactive Fire, like Sustained Attack, the idea would be superfluous, as an Attack without the risk of failing the Reactive Fire test would be possible. Reactive Fire specifies it iterrupts a unit's activation, which waiting until after a Sustained Attack, or the suggested full Fast movement, would not accomplish.

Reactive Fire occuring after all movement in a Charge is important only because it can occur before the Attack has been resolved, which still allows an interruption of the charging unit's activation. Allowing Reactive Fire after all movement, but before a Charge Attack is resolved, would also then add either a required exception to allow Reactive Fire after a Fast Charge, or it would mean the note was erroneous, and a Fast unit could never receive Reactive Fire. The note does not support that, nor does it add a specific exception that a Fast Charge can be interrupted before the Charge Attack, where normal Fast Move + Move cannot. Without either of those, Reactiv Fire must be allowed between Fast moves except in the case of a Fast Charge, as noted within the rules.

The FFG answer is a very poor one, because it adds contradictions to the rules, rather than actually answer the question. Having worked answering rules questions for games before, I can sympathise, but such answers should clarify, rather than contradict other rules that are very explicit. Unfortunately, many companies do not put as much restriction on who answers rules questions as they should, and things like this can add to problems instead of resolve them.

While Zach's company title suggests responsibility for game production, I checked and verified he is not listed in any of the DUST Tactics material published to date as a contributor, so he very probably is involved in other games than DUST Tactics, with simply a passing willingness to try and help with questions driving his response. That adds little weight to the response when he successfully contradicted other specific rules in doing so.

I hope that's a isolated incident, because if FFG's answers can't be trusted, it doesn't leave much for players to work with that want to mirror official interpretations for events.

I became curious about the rule interpretation because this came up in a game I recently played. My command squad was attacked by a BBQ squad and Joe. The BBQ squad was down to one guy and Joe with 1 health. They won the initiative and tried to perform an ATTACK + MOVE + FAST. I declaired REACTIVE FIRE with the Command Squad. The ATTACK was not successful. If Joe and his remaining BBQ squad were allowed to move they would be out of the line of site for the Command Squad. I successfully roled the REACTIVE FIRE and attacked with my command squad before Joe and the BBQ squad could move wiping them out.

I was under the impression, like everyone else here, that the REACTIVE FIRE would take place in between the opposing unit's actions. After the game I was reading through the rules and found the note about FAST units. Curious by what the note ment and taking into account its placement I decided to pose the question here and send a message to FFG. I want to make sure I understand the rules and play within the same rules guidlines everyone else is playing by.

I am not advocating for one or the other, though I have to point out the note about FAST units is very clear and though it may be poorly placed it is straight forward. If FFG intends to make FAST units immune to REACTIVE FIRE then they could come out and say so. Or they may simply be trying to say that FAST units cannot be interrupted by REACTIVE FIRE, but if you see a strategic reason to try to use REACTIVE FIRE, after they have completed all their moves and actions then go ahead and do so. I agree those reasons would be few and far between since you could simply attack them with your next turn. If for some reason the opposing side wants to get two shots at that unit, before the opposing player can block that unit or reactivate that unit with the command squad, I could see using REACTIVE FIRE at the end of a units movement (again very rare but it could happen).

I would be curious to see what type of reponse Justin receives (since he is the very person I was playing against in the above example).

Another quick response from FFG:

This is an excellent question, and it regards a topic we have been examining closely over the past couple of days. The note you are referencing, "Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all of its movement.", does refer solely to a Charge situation.

Due to the ambiguity of this note, however, we have recently received a number of questions regarding the rules surrounding Fast units and Reactive fire.

For your reference, the following is our definitive ruling on the subject:
Reactive Fire takes place between actions. However, if a Fast unit starts their activation by performing a MOVE action, no Reactive Fire can take place until this first MOVE action is completed in its entirety. So, if a unit moves into range for Reactive Fire with their base movement, but decides to use its Fast ability to move one more space, Reactive Fire does not occur after it completes its base movement. It can only occur after the unit has completed all of its movement for the first MOVE action, including movement gained from the Fast ability.

For example: A Hellboys unit (Fast, movement value of 1) decides to perform a MOVE + MOVE action sequence. The Fast ability can be applied to a its movement once during its activation, allowing it to move an additional space. During the first movement action the Hellboys move one space, leaving them vulnerable to Reactive Fire by an unactivated Hans. To keep from drawing Reactive Fire, the controlling player decides to activate the Hellboys' Fast ability on the first MOVE action, and moves them one additional space to a square that is out of range. The second MOVE action can now proceed normally, without interruption by Reactive Fire. If the player controlling the Hellboys had instead decided to save the Fast ability for the second MOVE action, the Hans would have been able to attempt Reactive Fire.

I hope this has answered your question. Happy Gaming!

And that is why I was 100% sure I was right.

This was a great answer. Not only he solved the whole "after all movement" debacle, but even confirmed that in a Move+Move, Fast can be applied to either action, according to the wishes of the moving player. It is sad that their first answer was so wrong, but I'm glad they've cleared everything up.

I just got the same email.

"After answering your question yesterday, the other Dust Tactics pros and myself have been examining the rules surrounding Fast units and Reactive Fire and have come to a definitive ruling on the subject.

The note you mentioned, "Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all of its movement.", is slightly misleading. It should be interpreted as "all of its movement for the action.", and not as "all of its movement for the entire activation.""

Really the FAST note has nothing to do with CHARGE at all. Basically they are just saying what you have said all along that REACTIVE FIRE will not come before the FAST move in a MOVE + FAST.

Which I am happy about because it means my using REACTIVE FIRE, on a unit with FAST before it made a MOVE action but affter an ATTACK action was correct.

Now I better let them recover their breath before asking them where the heck Reactive Fire takes place against a unit that received a Stimulant Kit shot.

Cause that one brings up all sorts of issues...

Here's the answer I received today. Pretty much what we thought it would be:

Hello Justin,

We have since reexamined our previous statement, since the note regarding Fast units and Reactive Fire is somewhat ambiguous. Below is the follow-up email we sent to Nicholas this morning:

Hi Nicholas,

After answering your question yesterday, the other Dust Tactics pros and myself have been examining the rules surrounding Fast units and Reactive Fire and have come to a definitive ruling on the subject.

The note you mentioned, "Note: If a unit has the Fast skill, Reactive Fire must occur after it has completed all of its movement.", is slightly misleading. It should be interpreted as "all of its movement for the action.", and not as "all of its movement for the entire activation."

The following is the definitive ruling on the subject:
Reactive Fire still takes place between actions. However, if a Fast unit starts their activation by performing a MOVE action, no Reactive Fire can take place until this first MOVE action is completed in its entirety. So, if a unit moves into range for Reactive Fire with their base movement, but decides to use its Fast ability to move one more space, Reactive Fire does not occur after it completes its base movement. It can only occur after the unit has completed all of its movement for its first MOVE action, including movement gained from the Fast ability.

For example: A Hellboys unit (Fast, movement value of 1) decides to perform a MOVE + MOVE action sequence. The Fast ability can be applied to a its movement once during its activation, allowing it to move an additional space. During the first movement action the Hellboys move one space, leaving them vulnerable to Reactive Fire by an unactivated Hans. To keep from drawing Reactive Fire, the controlling player decides to activate the Hellboys' Fast ability on the first MOVE action, and moves them one additional space to a square that is out of range. The second MOVE action can now proceed normally, without interruption by Reactive Fire. If the player controlling the Hellboys had instead decided to save the Fast ability for the second MOVE action, the Hans would have been able to attempt Reactive Fire.

Hopefully this has cleared up any confusion, and thanks for bringing this to our attention!

Zach Tewalthomas
Assoc. Miniatures Games Producer
Fantasy Flight Games

Loophole Master said:

Well, only one unit can attempt reactive fire anyway, so there's still that limitation. Now it's just figuring out if it's between any of the 4 actions or if there are limitations, such as reactive fire only happens after the first 2 actions but before the last 2 actions or something.

Is there really a limitation on how many units are allowed to attempt "Reactive Fire"??? haven´t seen that in the rules....

I conclude by logic that one attempts "Reactive Fire" against a unit under the effect of the "Smulant Kit" between any two actions using the guidelines that we already have. All the rules and limitations for "Reactive Fire" are still true and followed regardless of if "Reactive Fire" takes place between action 1 and 2, action 2 and 3 or action 3 and 4. I cant see any reason for it to function diffrently. What is important to remember is which skills affect "Reactive Fire" and how they affect it, at this moment is "Assualt", "Charge" and "Fast" that affect when "Reactive Fire" takes place.

Yeah, the question is whether Reactive Fire takes place between the 2nd and 3rd actions, or between any two actions. If it is between the 2nd and 3rd, what happens if the target does Move+Sustained FIre+Move, thus merging those actions? If it's between any two actions, who decides where, the target or the shooter?

Reactive Fire would have to take place between the first action and the Sustained Attack action, or between the Sustained Attack and the fourth action. The rules specify you can't do Reactive Fire during a Sustained Attack, so that only leaves the two normal action options remaining.

Gimp said:

Yeah, I know, but which one would it be? Before or after the sustained attack? Is that up to the target, the shooter, or is it fixed?

I would say it is up to the shooter to choose when and if he wants to attempt "Reactive Fire" as long as he complys with all the rules and limitations. I think the examples given doesnt mention that one could perform a "Reactive Fire" attempt after a "Sustained Attack" because of at the moment the "Stimulant Kit" didnt exsist and since a "Sustained Attack" takes both actions there is not the possiblity to interrupt that action as a whole. I think that with the insertion of the "Stimulant Kit" it changes the fact that a unit can perform more actions after a "Sustained Attack" and therfore could be interrupted of a "Reactive Fire" attempt.

Yes, the rule that a unit performing a sustained attack cannot be interrupted by reactive fire is clearly made obsolete by the Stimulant Kit. We have to look at this from the other side: basically, a unit that performs a Move action opens itself to Reactive Fire.

I'm just not convinced the placement of Reactive Fire should be solely up to the shooter. It might be the case, but it might just as well not be.

I would think the SUSTAINED ATTACK would be treated like an ATTACK and the REACTIVE FIRE could be performed after the SUSTAINED ATTACK or inbetween, or after the unit being attacked makes a MOVE action into the range of the REACTIVE FIRE.

Another great, quick answer by FFG:

There is no fixed place where Reactive Fire takes place against a unit that has received a Stimulant Kit shot. Reactive Fire can take place between any two actions. It cannot take place before the first action or after the last action. The player controlling the unit attempting Reactive Fire chooses between which two actions Reactive Fire will occur.

Loophole Master said:

That makes enough sense and allows for a nice dynamic to the game play and strategy.

Before when I mentioned only one unit being able to attempt Reactive Fire; It was pretty much just based of the interpretation of "a unit may attempt Reactive Fire" as meaning that only one unit may attempt. However with the addition of actions it becomes more vague. Such as, can a different unit attempt Reactive Fire between each action, or is it still limited to only one attempt regardless of the number of actions and enemy units in range? Imagine being able to attempt 3 Reactive Fires, provided the you have enough units in range. That would bring a whole new use for the Heroic Attack Skill.

The first sentence of the "Reactive Fire" rule say:

"Reactive Fire is a special action available to all units that haven’t been activated yet during the current game round."

and it doesnt say anywhere that only one unit is allowed to attempt this action per acting unit and also the downside of that there is a pretty big risk of not succeding with the roll i would say any number of units is allowed to try this. In my opinion the "reactive Fire" rules are spot on both in terms of efficency and in self balancing (not to good of a skill and not to big of a chance of overall success).

Gian said:

If you read the next sentence you will see that it says "...allow one of your units...."

Indeed:

"Reactive Fire temporarily interrupts the action of an enemy unit to allow one of your units to open fire. In order to perform this action, you must first select one of your unactivated units and roll one die."

While I agree that it could also work to allow one reactive fire in every gap between actions, the rules don't really permit that.

Thanks Mishap and Loophole!

Instead of arguing as we usally do Mishap and Loophole i asked FFG on the matter and got a very quick reply....

Zach Tewalthomas [email protected]
4:45 PM (0 minutes ago)

Hello Gian Carlo,

You recently asked a question about Dust Tactics:

Rule Question:
Hello

There has been a lot of discussion in the forum about "Reactive Fire" and i have a question regarding it.

Is there any limitation in how many opposing units are allowed to attempt "Reactive Fire" for one and the same action?

There is no limit to the number of opposing units that can attempt Reactive Fire during a single activation. However, units may only attempt Reactive Fire if they have not yet been activated during the game round.

I hope this has answered your question. Happy Gaming!

Zach Tewalthomas
Assoc. Miniatures Games Producer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected]