Kshatriya said:

That's a good question to ponder. I don't think the armor on 'most' of the vehicles is innapropriate as it is. The Land Raider is the ultimate in armoured support in the Imperium. Touted as nigh invulnerable in most fluff. I do agree the bikes are bit weak, but then again, they have a decent maneuverability bonus to use with evasive maneuvering and dodging, so I don't know. Then there is the difficulty of actually repairing the damage to take into account (being, along with medicae, something I think needs a re-jiggering). If you make it too easy to take out said Land Raider, what happens when your kill-team gets one for a mission and it wouldn't survive the first encounter with anti-tank weaponry?

As for damage output, most anti-tank weapons seem to have a decent chance to hurt even a land raider. Especially with all those dice your rolling. The effect of hitting a critical system is easily represented by the weapon rolling a 0 or two, which it would likely need to actually damage the tank. in other words an attack capable of getting through the armor has a high chance of causing serious damage to the tank. And while accurate does not benefit heavy weapons, Eye of Vengence does (minus Blast weapons). Although, admitedly it is a Rank 7 advance. It is available though at a time when the kill-team should be facing more and more powerful and better equipped enemies.

To continue with the RPG element line of discusion, there are more than one ways of skinning a tank (err cat... sorry). Blowing a bridge while its on it, digging (or exploding) tank pits to trap it, dropping a building on top of it. All things possible in the RPG setting. Having all these and more possibilities open for the players gives them many more opportunities to think and roleplay their way out of situation. Instead of just throwing dice at the threat, which I wholely support.

herichimo said:

1. What does RF have to do with the fix as suggested?
2. They might have nerfed the LR too hard if you compare it to other vehicles. SI of 55 or 60 might be more appropriate.
3. That still leaves the problem of: how good should melta be at closr range against a LR? I say it should be very good. If you hit a LR in the TT with close-range melta, it has a 50% chance of being dead. Now this cannot be directly mapped onto 40k RP but it needs to be taken into account. Melta punches through a LRs armour. Now how many melta shots do we need to defeat the LR:

newAP = 50 + (30-50) x 0.2 = 46

new MM versus new AP: 2d10+16 with Pen 12 versus AP 23 (halved by melta house-rule) = 2d10+5 getting through.

2d10+5! That 16 per shot. Which means that you will need 3 MM shots on average to get the LR done. If you up to SI 60, that is 4 shots. Which translates into 4 rounds - if you don't account have Fire For Effect available and agree not to dodge. (And done means here getting it below 0 SI at which it isn't done yet.)

Now that means your MM guy needs to survive maybe 2 to 5 rounds against the LR (plus any accompanying infantry). The LR can try to get into cover, pop smoke, or make hitting harder by driving away at full speed (sadly to-hit modifiers for target speed missing), perhaps even out of melta range (good luck in that case). All the while a gunner or the machine spirit can pepper you with Lascannons, Multi-Meltas, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Flamestorn cannons.

And you are certain to get the attention of the LR and its crew if you wield a Multi-Melta and are in close range.

herichimo said:

Depending on circumstances they might get blamed for not properly screening a holy relic from close-range Multi-Melta fire. With all the renown loss that entails.

herichimo said:

While we are rightfully praising the mighty Land Raider, let me also hail the mighty Multi-Melta: "Meltas are the premier anti-armour weapons, and few if any vehicles can withstand their power."

Alex

PS And the MM can't reliably one-shot a Rhino. Under my hot fix rules, it has a slightly better chance but not too much of a difference. The hot fix makes melta work better against high AP vehicles.

What I meant by RF is that RF on vehicles is basically the same as vehicle hits from the tabletop. A lots-of-damage-dice weapon that beats AP has a higher chance of scoring one of those effects on a vehicle especially if it can greatly reduce the AP so the damage actually "gets through."

Just to say, I like your melta fix and agree with you on LR AP if it's used.