I’m sure this has been brought up before but I wanted to run some numbers on Assault Marines fighting Hordes, especially in light of the new stuff from First Founding. I’ve thought AMs and other meleeists suffer against Hordes compared to ranged fighters, given how much easier and cheaper ranged modifiers stack – most dependable melee modifiers are derived from Talents (Hatred comes to mind foremost), while Ranged modifiers are more about rate of fire and distance from the target. Both melee and ranged get size mods, obviously. Regardless, the AM in my group has dealt nowhere near the damage as the Dev (and rightly so in some ways - they were Rank 1) so I wanted to see how he might improve at higher Rank and/or if there is a melee build that can compete with Devs or even high-BS bolterspec Tacmarines in slaying Hordes.

The build proposed is extreme, and obviously optimized. Less optimized builds will therefore have worse damage results. As a side note, it’s interesting that the degree of optimization needed to create a Horde-killing AM is much higher than that needed for a Dev that kills Hordes even faster.Devs need Req; AMs need XP.

Here is a quick rundown of relevant equipment, talents, and builds for this model. The optimum build appears to be an Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran Assault Marine dual-wielding power weapons who’s taken Thunder Charge as an Elite Advance. Thunder Charge is necessary to get additional attacks (as I read it, it’s additional attacks, NOT additional hits – this is key unless I derped hard) against a Horde and Tyrannic War Veteran is necessary to be able to parry (and therefore Counter-Attack) Horde attacks (parrying Hordes is available to Tyrannic War Veterans through a Talent).

Equipment/Actions:

• Power weapon: +1 hit per attack
• Death is Joy Armor History: +1 hit per attack
• Attacking: +1 hit per 2 DoS on the attack roll

Relevant Talents:

• Lightning Attack + Two-Weapon Wielder (Melee): 4 attacks per round (3 w/on-hand, 1 w/off-hand, all made at -10 WS)
• Thunder Charge: +(1d5+1) unarmed attacks to a Horde when Charging, prior to resolving Charge damage
• Counter-Attack: after parrying, free attack at -20 WS
• Wall of Steel: gain an additional parry Reaction
• Preternatual Speed: may use Lightning Attack as a Half Action or when Charging
• Whirlwind of Death: double Magnitude damage done to Hordes in melee

Career:

• Wrathful Descent (Assault Marine): +1d10 damage to Horde Magnitude on a successful Charge
• Tyrannic War Veteran – Bulwark Stratagem: parry Horde attacks with a penalty to WS equal to half the Horde’s Magnitude

Now to the math, which is where I want someone to check me, especially involving Thunder Charge and how it relates to other Talents and gear. For this exercise, I’m leaving aside Preternatural Speed and Whirlwind of Death (because they’re flat competency additions and gained very very late in the game – both are Rank 8 and appropriately nasty). Everything else is available pretty early – Lightning Attack is Rank 2, Wall of Steel is Rank 3, and Counter-Attack is Rank 4 (but you can also get Counter-Attack through a Deed).

I’d like to see if my math holds up on this!

Assumptions necessary for this model:
-The Battle-Brother is an Ultramarine Assault Marine and Tyrannic War Veteran (necessary to even be able to parry Horde attacks).
-The Battle-Brother got 6 DoS on every single attack roll, including Counter-Attacks at -20 WS – not necessarily hard given high WS/cheap Advances, the bonus from Magnitude size, Hatred, Charging, etc. --Assume maximum damage is calculated at 6 DoS on every single attack roll – this is necessarily an abstraction, since I’m not great at math and obviously in-game, the actual amount of DoS will fluctuate.
-The Horde is infinite size and will not break, since that would change both its and the AM’s actions
-The AM always rolls an amount of damage exceeding the Horde’s Toughness + AP, and thus inflicts Magnitude damage on every attack

COMBAT BEGINS , Assault Marine (AM) beats the Horde in initiative.

1st Round – AM’s action (Close and Engage): Charge Horde. 6 unarmed attacks from Thunder Charge + 1 armed attack from the Charge itself.
-Maximum damage on each Thunder Charge attack = 4: 1 [Death is Joy] + 3 [1 per 2 DoS, at 6 DoS]
-Maximum damage on the Charge = 15: 1 [power weapon] + 1 [Death is Joy] + 10 [Wrathful Descent] + 3 [1 per 2 DoS, at 6 DoS]
-TOTAL maximum damage = 39 [24 from 6 Thunder Charge attacks + 15 from the Charge itself]

1st Round – Horde’s action (attack); AM successfully parries and counters 2 attacks, and survives any more
-Maximum damage on each Counter-Attack = 5: 1 [power weapon] + 1 [Death is Joy] + 3 [1 per 2 DoS, at 6 DoS]
-TOTAL Maximum Counter-Attack damage = 10 Magnitude

TOTAL ROUND 1 MAXIMUM DAMAGE = 49 Magnitude [39 from attacks, 10 from Counter-Attacks]

2nd Round – AM’s action (Full Attack - Lightning Attack + Two-Weapon Wielder): 4 armed attacks broken down as 3 with Lightning Attack and 1 with the off-hand.
-Maximum damage on each attack = 5: 1 [power weapon] + 1 [Death is Joy] + 3 [1 per 2 DoS, at 6 DoS]
-TOTAL maximum damage = 20 [5 per attack x 4 attacks]

2nd Round – Horde’s action (attack); AM successfully parries and counters 2 attacks, and survives any more
-Maximum damage on each Counter-Attack = 5: 1 [power weapon] + 1 [Death is Joy] + 3 [1 per 2 DoS, at 6 DoS]
-TOTAL Maximum Counter-Attack damage = 10 Magnitude

TOTAL ROUND 2 MAXIMUM DAMAGE = 30 Magnitude [20 from attacks, 10 from Counter-Attacks]

TOTAL MAXIMUM DAMAGE IN 2 ROUNDS = 79 Magnitude [49 from Round 1, 30 from Round 2]

If I did it right, Thunder Charge has the potential to deal huge damage with up to 6 unarmed attacks - not exactly paltry; given how SMs calculate unarmed attack damage, they might exceed TB + AP on every hit. Death is Joy is almost necessary as the 1st round consisted of 9 total attacks, and DiJ added 9 Magnitude damage total. The power weapon is the same way - but most SMs will grab a power sword ASAP and hold onto it at least til they can get the fist or a Thunder Hammer. Two Weapon added a bit of damage to the overall Lightning Attack scheme.

Anyone spot any errors? Going through this sorta changed my opinion of the AM's capabilities, but it leads me to wonder how well non- or less-optimized AMs (or other specialties going into melee) would fare. Certainly not every GM will allow Thunder Charge as an Elite Advance, certainly not everyone will get Death is Joy, etc.

Immaculate and expensive, but effective and your math appears correct. my only question is about how many actions the AM takes in the round/turn.

Your calculation presumes that the Horde makes more than one melee attack per round, which is only possible if the Horde has the Swift or Lightning Attack Talent, which few Hordes have.

Sounds legit otherwise.

Stannis Ravensight said:

Thanks! I'm not sure I understand your question though, heh.

Round 1 would be a Charge upon the Horde (Full Action). Thunder Charge activates as part of the Charge Attack (I guess you'd call that a Free Action?) and says it gives 1d5+1 additional unarmed attacks against the Horde when it does. The Thunder Charge attacks are immediately followed by resolution of the original Charge Attack. Obviously Thunder Charge's increasing attacks is critical vs. increasing hits, as more attacks allow Death is Joy to come into play on every attack that deals damage exceeding the TB + AP of the Horde, and any AM is going to have sufficient WS to hit any Horde of at least Magnitude 30 (since that is where the size bonus kicks in) barring a natural 100 or something.

Round 2 would be 4 attacks: 3 from Lightning Attack and 1 from Two-Weapon Wielder, all at -10 WS.

Each attack-following-successful-party granted by Counter-Attack is a Free Action and I haven't seen anything saying there's an upper limit to how many you can do aside from your maximum number of Parry-based Reactions (2 with Wall of Steel, and 2 is the max without using Squad Modes). The number could get even bigger through use of sustained Tactical Spacing, assuming that the rest of the Team are in positions where they don't need their Reactions and are willing to funnel them to the AM to provide more Counter-Attacks upon successful parries. Then you're maxed out at a number of Reactions equal to [2 + (# of other members in the KT) + (# of bonus parries other KT members have through Wall of Steel)]. The last is not going to come into play unless you have another AM, a Librarian, or a Deathwatch Champion in the KT, since Wall of Steel only appears on a couple of advance tables.

In each situation, the AM takes a total of 1 Full Action per turn - either Charge or Multiple Attack. At Rank 8 with Preternatural Speed, the AM can use a Full Action to Charge (proccing Thunder Charge) and use Lightning Attack, for a total of 5+1d5 attacks (1d5+1 of which are unarmed) as a Full Action in 1 Round.

Did that address your question? Let me know if it didn't.

Whizzer said:

You're right. At the time of writing last night for some reason I was thinking that Hordes get a number of melee attacks equal to the first number of their Magnitude, but that's their number of ranged attacks.

I'm not sure that most Hordes will get only 1 melee attack per turn, given the Overwhelming Trait is prevalent on melee Hordes, if nothing else. Most creatures designed for use as a melee Horde actually have at least 2 attacks:

• Hormagaunts will get 3 (Swift Attack + Overwhelming Horde)
• A Genestealer horde will get 4 (Lightning Attack + Multiple Arms, but I categorically refuse to use Genestealer Hordes as a GM and have never seen another GM use them, despite the precedent for them in The Emperor Protects)
• Kroot Carnivores will get 3 (Swift Attack + Overwhelming Horde)
• Ork Boyz will get 2 (Overwheming Horde)

The main 1-hit-in-melee Hordes I found were Vespid, Fire Warriors, Kroot Hounds, human Chaos troops, and Termagants. With the exception of Kroot Hounds and Chaos cannon fodder, all of those Hordes are primarily designed as hardcore ranged attackers and screwed in melee anyway.

Wait. Where is this "counter-attack lets you parry hordes" rules coming from?

bogi_khaosa said:

It's not Counter-Attack that lets you parry Hordes. It's the Tyrannic War Stratagem - Bulwark from the Tyrannic War Veteran table in First Founding .

Tyrannic War Stratagem - Bulwark lets you parry a Horde's attacks in melee, taking a penalty to the parry roll equal to (Magnitude/2). Counter-Attack just gives you a Free Action attack at -20 anytime you successfully parry.

So you'd need Tyrannic War Stratagem - Bulwark to even be able to parry the Horde's attacks. If you had it and that parry was successful, Counter-Attack would let you respond to the Horde in kind.

I dunno, but unless this was specifically mentioned (?), this smells of rules abuse to me, I doubt they meant it to be used that way.

And oh, I really need to get First Founding,

My position is that if they didn't want it to be used that way, they should have specifically said that the parry couldn't be used to proc Counter-Attack. I doubt it's that strange a thing to conceive of given that it's mostly Assault Marines who will be in melee with/parrying Hordes anyway, and Counter-Attack is a big thing for them once they get it. Surely I wasn't the only one to notice the potential?

I mean, maybe it's stacking a lot of rules in what could be seen as an abusive way. I just don't feel that bad about it given the proposed errata that improves Explosive-type ammunition. Devs are (and should be) kings of Horde-killing, but that doesn't mean other Specialties shouldn't be able to pull out some fun tricks too.