Long time gamer but very new to the WH40K universe and looking for some advice. My group is about to start a new campaign and chose Deathwatch as the system. I am curious what alternatives there are to playing a typical space marine -- I know that the Astartes can only be male and I'd prefer playing something female. (Not quite ready to take a stab at playing a gender opposite of my own. Someday though! It's on my bucket list, honest.)

I'm not looking for ways to manipulate story or background, or go against canon. I'm just wondering what, in your experiences, has done best at keeping the disparity between power levels to the most helpful minimum. The original thought was to ascend an Adeptus Sororitas; but to what? Which ascended career stands the strongest in situations where marines would be sent? And how did you build those characters to give them the best chance of surviving alongside the space marines? It seems that the big hiccup to overcome is the difference in ability to soak damage vs. damage output. Marines soak incredibly well and have weapons that deal a lot of damage at high penetration. Whereas the ascended careers soak far less and put out far less damage.

I also apologize if this has been discussed at length in another thread, I tried a several search attempts and mostly found ideas for bending story and background to accommodate the desire for a female character. Would rather see what career/build/set up works best as is, and just give it try.

Thanks!

Sororitas have an ascended career. It was in a PDF supplement.

Give them easier use of Faith powers. I wouldn't equalize weapons or armor unless you just want to ignore the fluff and equalize everything across the board. Which is fine but realize that's what's happening.

Also realize that Ascension doesn't play well with anything but itself. An ascended DH character has all the skills to effortlessly bypass things that might slow down SMs, just as SMs will own most ascended characters in combat...aside from psykers and assassins of course.

Two recent discussions on the topic...they go off the rails thanks to people like me, but both cover the idea of bringing non-SM characters into deathwatch. Searching on things like "women in deathwatch," "inquisitors in deathwatch," or "sisters of battle" might find you some more, I know it's come up several times in the past.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=587996&efpag=0

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=214&efcid=3&efidt=586609

In summary, it works, but the GM and players (all of them) have to be careful and open to the idea.

Hey, don't take this as I'm against it. Cause I'm not, really. I like the thought of the roleplaying opportunities for having a mere mortal march around with the demigods of the Imperium.

But, we had a guy who was dead set on being a veteren guardsman. After arguing and then showing him why a man-portable lascannon wasn't exactly "man-portable" he went more close combat and brought a powersword. Along came a genestealer, so he waltzes up there and takes a swing. On his very first attack he rolled a 10 for damage, can't remember if he RF or not, but after making the best possible attack he could, he did zero damage to the stealer. Then the genestealer swung once and nearly killed him outright. And this was an ascended character.

Needless to say, that character didn't play with us again.

The big thing about ascended stuff mixed with DW is summed up in a few key points noting the aspects of the most powerful Ascension classes:

• Absent retooling the whole DH psionics system, an Ascension-level normal-human psyker (i.e. not an SM Librarian) will effortlessly one-shot most DW opponents, given that an Ascension-level psyker's Force Barrage can one-shot a cluster of greater daemons. Oh and it'll make any Librarian player feel really useless unless you wind up fighting a lot of blanks or something.
• Inquisitors have effectively unlimited social clout, moderated only by the fact that they know that honey catches more flies than vinegar. Some don't care, and the rosette basically means anything they want to do, they will be able to do.
• Desperadoes and some other classes (i.e. Inquisitors, Interrogators) will effortlessly pass any non-combat test. So if you were hoping to hang up your SMs with a complicated security system or force them to interact with a byzantine social structure that they have no experience in, this challenge will be obviated by an infiltration and/or social-focused Ascension character who will have all the right Talents and Peer groups and Ascended stuff to chat up Tetrarchus if they want to
• Assassins are in no danger of getting hit, ever. Especially Vindicare, and they'll snipe your Dagon Overlord from a tiny cave 2 km away to boot as icing on the cake.
• Lore tests are no longer an issue if there's a Sage. And a Sage is likely a better healer than an Apothecary with all that Unnatural Intelligence

Much of this is tempered by the fact that if you put a non-SM into melee with a Horde or a single elite that actually lands a blow, they're going to get pasted unless they too have really good power armor and/or a Rosarius or some other effect to take the hit for them.

The reason I bring this up is yes, DW can be an unappealing game for females who don't want to play male characters to get into, because there's really nothing for them in the baseline game. However, grafting Ascension on creates a number of new hurdles for the GM and the group, balancing the female character's relative squishyness in combat (lower AP armor, a LOT fewer Wounds and in a lot of cases, lessened damage output) with their extremely increased out-of-combat capabilities compared to Astartes. I'd think it's just easier to play Ascension-level DH and if one or two people really want to be Astartes, let them play Kill-Marines (see Rites of Battle) and give them that Advanced Specialty without buy-in cost. They'll shine as Astartes do in combat situations and probably provide some other good stuff, but to me it seems like fitting one SM in an Ascension game works better than fitting one Ascension-level DH character into a DW game.

And always consider that playing an SM is not the same as playing any old male character. You're not just some guy. You're a genetically-augmented warrior-monk who's effectively a grandson of the Emperor and a member of a philosophical and deadly knightly order that's 10,000 years old and conquered the galaxy way back when. In some ways I think it might be easier for a girl who doesn't play male characters to play an SM, because they fit into big archetypes a lot easier than, say, a Scum in DH or something. It might be an easier starting point for roleplaying genderswap than playing a "normal" guy in the end.

I've found that in my game the Inquisitor is, as you'd expect, very powerful in social situations. He's also immensely competent lore-wise as well as he's based on the Adept Career. However. All this can be moderated by suitably deep knowledge of the universe. An Inquisitor is an immensely powerful individual and put even on Space Marine into the mix and you essentially multiply his ability to shock and awe socially (as well as militarily). However! There are individuals an Inquisitor may have difficulty dealing with. These are generally individuals of equal or higher social standing such as Rogue Traders, other Inquisitors, Crusade Warmasters, Chapter Masters/Company Captains etc. People whom the party is likely to come in contact with given the high powered nature of the campaign. It is totally possible for a Rogue Trader to argue with an Inquisitor, remove them from his ship or simply ignore them. It can be more tricky with Space Marines wandering about and it may be right to suggest that this is very unusual behaviour, but it is possible in-universe. As with all/most departments of the Imperium, the Inquisitions reach is truly vast, but it does have it's limits. It just hides them far better than other groups.

As I said in the first thread linked to by Charmander, if you're going to play an Ascended DH Character, there is little point in focusing on combat. Firstly, you have far more choices which is probably why you're trying to do what you are and secondly Space Marines are literally built from puberty up to be combat monsters. You are not. (unless you're a Vindicare, but nevermind that!).

Any questions, I'm happy to answer them,

-Durandal

Small nitpick Durandal: yes a Rogue Trader could ignore an order from an Inquisitor. He'd be doing so knowing that, at any moment, the Inquisitor could legally declare him Excommunicate Traitoris, strip him of all his property rights throughout the Imperium, and put out a Kill-on-Sight order with the Imperial Navy to engage the ship whenever and wherever they encounter it. He could still disobey the order but even the highest echelons of the Imperium fear the Inquisition and for good reason. That (all) Inquisitors don't go around killing everyone who looks at them funny is by virtue of them recognizing sometimes playing nice pays off in the long run and that trading favors can bind someone closer than the raw fear of death or torture. But they're not obligated to at all. And frankly I wouldn't trust a Rogue Trader's crew faced with an order from the Inquisitor of "overthrow your captain or you will all burn as heretics" to stay loyal.

Canonically the Inquisitors can only be issued orders by the Emperor himself and technically nobody but the Emperor outranks even the newest Inquisitor. The rosette bestows effectively unlimited power to prosecute the enemies of the Imperium. One Inquisitor has little power to curtail the activities of another short of fighting a shadow war with proxies and acolytes, and even the title "Inquisitor-Lord" is more of an honorific than any true statement of relative rank - they're just very well-connected, and thus more likely to win any intranecine conflict by virtue of their connections and web of power.

Thanks for all the replies and advice everyone, it's been really helpful. I think I am going to end up just giving the space marine a shot. I told the GM that if I end up really really hating it and have to bear through it until the game ends, that in return for my faithful duty - he should then run an ascended DH game for me to satisfy my cravings for all the juicy neato stuff I found while trying to make a compatible character the first time around! LOL ^.^

Thanks again.

If you have any questions about the fluff of certain Chapters, feel free to ask. Some might make the transition to playing a male character easier than others. And a number directly correspond to real-world historic cultural groups in terms of their Chapter culture.

And I'd definitely take a look at the "Roleplaying a Space Marine" section of the Deathwatch book - it helps you get into the mindspace of a being that has barely any kind of normal human outlook.

Warning, derailment inbound...

Kshatriya said:

Now, I'm not disagreeing that Ascended Psykers are out of control, but I'm wondering from a crunch perspective where you get the numbers from or if you're using hyperbole (mainly I'm wondering if my view of Ascension psykers being broken is even an underestimation). Most of the Greater Daemons I've found, at least from the DW books, have UT in addition to the Daemonic trait, meaning that while the psy power eliminates 6-8 soak from the creature, they still have ridiculous amounts of defense.

Kshatriya, I never suggested that taking such an action was a sensible thing to do, simply that it is possible. I'm not sure I'd trust a Rogue Trader who, in the most general terms, wouldn't help and/or obey an Inquisitor. But we're also assuming that the Inquisitor is behaving with genuinely the best interests of the Imperium at heart. There are pleanty of rogue Inquisitors kicking about. Part of the problem is that the Imperium tries to view things in black and white. The reality is so far from black and white as to bear no resemblence.

I also think you underestimate the loyalty of a ship crew to (assuming he is well liked) their Captain. In TEP there is an NPC that will essentially verbally put down the Space Marines for causing the Rogue Trader any distress (real, percieved or otherwise). This is not a person who would essentially mutiny on a dime. Of course, there are crews who would do. But again! Grey area!

I understand that in literal terms the Inquisition is beholden explicitly only to the Emperor and that all others can be held to account by them. However, there are exceptions, notably the Cult Mechanicum, the Adeptus Astartes and Rogue Traders. Possibly you could include the Navis Nobilite aswell since they are very into self-regulation. But with the exception of the AdMech, these are pretty small isolated organizations. The Inquisition could still be considered to have massive and total powers over 99% of the Imperial population.

-Durandal

ps. I do love good discussions

Charmander said:

It's not based on experience with DW-statted daemon enemies, only those in DH, which are generally (IMO) not as nasty. Also considering the sheer number of bolts in a Force Barrage launched from a Primaris with Unnatural Willpower, and Overbleed bonus damage, you can see how it'd get insane on that psychic system. Even if there's some hyperbole, there's not an excessive amount of it.

Kshatriya said:

I think this is because in RAW Force Barrage gets an increase of WP to the damage, like Force Bolt. In RAI I'm pretty sure this wasn't meant; the wording is vague. So your Primaris will be firing 14 or so 1d10 + 4 (IIRC) bolts, not 14 1d10 + 18 bolts.

bogi_khaosa said:

IMO Ascension didn't ever really consider what unnatural traits would do to the system. Unnaturals are huge and in DH they're only there for a fraction of the classes, which creates real internal balance problems.

Force Barrage is 1 bolt per WP bonus plus one per 5 points of overbleed, at 1d10+WP Bonus damage (arguably an additional +1 per point of overbleed but we'll exclude that for now), meaning 14 some odd bolts at say 1d10+14 damage for a good psyker. Against DW statted Greater Daemons, it's good but not game breaking, with their toughness + unnatural toughness (not accounting for daemonic that is negated by psy powers) of 14 and some with armor and some without, but well over 100 wounds.

However I think the point still stands that even if this particular power can't TPK a group of baddies (or good guys) in one turn, the unnaturals interacting with DH psy powers can have unexpected (and/or unintended) consequences. Look at Seal Wounds, which will heal 1d10+WP Bonus wounds of any character within 10m, with each point of overbleed doing either +10m range OR +1d10+WP bonus as a half action, healing normal or critical damage. So something like 2d10+28 on a half decent roll from an ascended psyker. Beat that apothecary.

Again, to the OP I wouldn't say don't, I'd say tread carefully and ensure player and GM work closely together. And check with Durandal7, who seems to have a pretty decent thing going.

Charmander said:

That's RAW, produced as far as I can tell by one bad sentence; I think that RAI is that you have an option between one powerful blast (force blast) or a bunch of weaker ones (force barrage).

Otherwise, there wouldn't be much of a point in having two separate powers listed. They would have just had one, that generated increased damage and blasts from overbleed.

bogi_khaosa said:

Side topic sucking me in!

Fom your description I agree, but when I look at it from a DH balance/mechanics perspective things look different to me. I feel that Force Barrage should be the autofire to the single shot of Force Bolt when I look at it from a DH perspective.

Remember in DH core, you have no unnatural willpower for psykers, meaning you're looking at 1d10+6 damage tops per bolt (figuring max WP of a non-supplemented DH core character would be 65), and a max number of bolts in the barrage of 6. Force Barrage is a full action with a threshold of 21 - only Regenerate, Soul Sight, Holocost, Precision Telekenesis, and Dominate have a higher Threshold.

If it had no WP bonus to damage, it means it would do 1d10. This means that on average, a level 1 character wearing a body glove (or flak vest) would take zero damage from a force barrage (average roll of 5.5 on damage versus the TB of 3 and an AP of 3 for a total of 6 damage reduction, meaning each bolt does 0 damage). This would make sense for a lower level power, but for one that's near the top of the list in Threshold (which also means danger in activation) and requires you to be at least level 4 to reliably activate it should be better.

Enter Ascension and suddenly powers that were moderatly powered (6 1d10+6 bolts, or a 1d10+6 holocost) get a huge boost (12 1d10+12 bolts or a 1d10+12 holocost without the +10 to WP you get from ascension).

That's all conjecture mind you.

EDIT: Re: Multiple Powers: You have to buy each power individually, and this is also part of the balancing act- to do one bolt is 200xp, to do a barrage is 400 (or more) xp.

Charmander said:

EDIT: Reexamining I think I misremembered the power; the issue is not WPB but applying both kinds of overbleed, not just one.

Let's do the math to see if this works.

Let's look at this if RAI work in the way I think they were supposed to, in which 1) Force Bolt creates 1 bolt that does 1d10 + WP bonus damage + 1 per 5 points of Overbleed and 2) Force Barrage creates 1 bolt that does 1d10 + WP bonus + 1 bolt per 5 points of overbleed.

Let's say, WPB of 12 and a manifestation roll of 50 (a lot).

A. Force Bolt creates one bolt that does 1d10 + WPB12 + 6 levels of overbleed = 1d10 + 18 damage.

B. Force Barrage has 4 levels of overbleed so it fires 5 bolts, each of which does 1d10 + 12 damage. Which is inferior to an Astartes Heavy Bolter since there is no Pen and 1 less shot.

This seems right to me. Am I doing something wrong?

bogi_khaosa said:

Goddamit why can't I edit my own posts?

OK, this is wrong, it should be

A. Force Bolt creates one bolt that does 1d10 + WPB12 + 6 levels of overbleed = 1d10 + 18 damage.

B. Force Barrage has 4 levels of overbleed so it fires 12 + 4 = 16 bolts, each of which does 1d10 + 12 damage. Which equals an Astartes Heavy Bolter with no Pen but a lot more hits.

This is incapable of even damaging a Bloodthirster because of its high AP... It will statistically munch a Lord of Change a round on average though, you're right, unless it has a defensive psychic bubble around it, which it should. If it even has an 8AP Telekinetic Shield around it, it takes an average of 4 Wounds per hit for an average of 64 Wounds, assuming all bolts hit which statistically they probably won't.

EDIT: It is also incapable of damaging a Carnifex. Even if you brought the WP Bonus up to 18 it will bounce off a Carnifex without effect. (TB18 + AP 10 = 28).

EDIT 2: Assuming no Righteous Fury.

EDIT 3: Let's say the Lord of Change has Force Bubble up, which it logically should in a combat. It has a Psy Rating of 8 and WILL Push, since it it can do so with no danger. This gives it PR11 x 2 = 22 AP. Meaning that the Primais Psyker cannot damage it even with a Willpower Bonus of 18. Assuming no RF.

It's time based, you have to essentially edit it within the same session. It's crap, and we all know it.

bogi_khaosa said:

In my reading for every 5 points of damage you do an additional damage with the bolt, and an additional bolt with Barrage. Again, to me give the high activation requirements of Barrage, the RAW is as intended, leaving the concept of whether or not overbleed adds to both bolt number and damage of force barrage, to which I'd be inclined (in a DH setting certainly) to say no unless a particular player was regularly getting beaten up and outclassed by his neighbors.

bogi_khaosa said:

Correct, that's what my original inquiry was about. This particular one doesn't go ape all over DW statted master enemies, at least the ones in MotX, but Psykers don't have to only have this power. Look at some of the others and you'll find things can still go awry, or at least result in surprises. Look at psy blade- if you have a WPB of 14, the weapon does 1d10+28 with a pen of 28, and it will ignore daemonic. Then look at holocaust, dominate, seal wounds, etc.

I don't know that any of these are game breaking. I know of Astartes tricks that do equal or more devestation to the enemies, but the powers are definitely a game changer/alterer.

To loop back to the original topic, any GM attempting a crossover has to watch closely and familiarize themselves with several additional books, and work with their players on the matter, that's all. Same with non-psykers- if you're pulling in a non spy-enabled inquisitor, that Inquisitor will have +20s in half the skills on the sheet or more, meaning they'll out talk most PCs. The GM just has to take that into account when planning out adventures to be inclusive of everyone at the table.

EDIT: See, this thing sucks. Sorry about my replies appearing inside the quote blocks...blech.