Hello all!

Having just purchased the First Founding book I noticed that there's the option for purchasing Honour Blades. The text notes that you're buying a broadsword, and a poniard blade set, which grants you additional defensive bonuses. (+30 parry, and an additional parry from the Wall of Steel talent)

So my questions are as follows :

1: Based on the description, the stats for the weapon set is based on the broadsword (Since the Poniard is the parry blade) - and as there's no real dual wielding? E.g the Poniard is just there to look pretty when attacking, but comes into play during defense?

2: Signature wargear, and the Honourguard Elite advance would upgrade both blades? (Not that it matters I suppose if #1 is true)

TormDK said:

You could use a combat knife as base for poniard? Anyway I would use the Rules Questions link below, it's for such questions and the whole thing needs obviously a clarification in errata. Also if you're lucky, you get Nathan to clarify in here, as he's the author of at least the Honor Guard.

Alex

I agree with ak-73 for stats, if you feel it's needed.

I think the intent wasn't so much for dual wielding, but that the poinard take s the place of a shield and grants the parry bonus.

For the upgrade, since they are a set, I would say it upgrades both.

Thanks much for your replies both of you.

The reason I ask is mostly from a two-weapon wielder perspective, and just how much damage can be frontloaded using such a combo.

I like the idea of using the honour blade set, even as a non-ultramarine so I figured I'd ask for the opinions of peers.

I'll give the rule question link a go and see what happens.

TormDK said:

1) Yup. that's my take. It's a two weapon set but the shorter blade is used purely defensively, and is what gives the wall of steel and parry bonus. With just the main blade, those are lost.

I'd give combat blade stats for it if someone wanted to use the small blade offensively, but they then cannot use the wall of steel or +20 parry bonus.

2) Yup.

It's not well-pitched in the text at all, so really does need clarification.

As it explicitly calls out both weapons as power blades ("a matching Broadsword and Poniard power blade set") I'm inclined to use the same stats (i.e. those in the table) for both weapons (while I see where reduced stats on the parrying blade make sense, I wouldn't run it that way). And I don't see any intent that attacking with the poinard should remove your Wall or Steel or extra parry bonus. Is that more of a proposed house rule? Just asking because nothing in the text suggests to it, I just see it as a little punitive. *shrug*

Seems to me like a good set for any melee-defense-oriented smurf, especially if you don't care to really two-weapon attack with the poinard, but also a decent thing for an Assault Marine to stack on with other WS/parry bonuses to get even better.

And just to note - combat shields sit on the upper arm and don't take up a hand slot (unless I missed some errata) so you could wear one as well, though I probably wouldn't give any more bonus for doing so.

Kshatriya said:

I don't see 20 Req for a slightly inferior power sword that grants an amazing talent and +20 balance as punitive, given that a normal power sword is 20 Req. Whereas I see 20 Req for a pair of slightly inferior power swords which can both be attacked with *and* provide an awesome talent *and* +20 to parry ridiculously under-priced. So, yes: It would be a house rule; but one that common sense dictates to me.

As written, they are excellent for *any* Ultramarine who has two free hands, because they grant WoS, which is otherwise unobtainable for any save Assault Marines, *and* a massive parry bonus. Even not allowing the off-hand attack, they are staggeringly good value.

Combat shields don't require a hand, but they'd be attached to the forearm, not the upper arm. You can't actively parry with a shield attached to your upper arm. But the bonus would not stack, because you specifically need to be parrying with an item to gain a bonus from it.

Siranui said:

I agree.

The bonus to this pair of weapons is that you are effectively getting a combat shield for free along with the power sword. This is why I would lean toward the interpretation that the poniard is not meant for attacking.

Hm. I'd just increase the req requirement in that case. Especially since iirc you can still shield bash without losing your parry bonus from the shield (books not in front of me, will doublecheck later). Req increase seems more elegant to me than additional rules on when the weapon can actually be used offensively.

Still, wouldn't be the first time that something chapter-specific was really good for the cost, especially an Ultramarines thing.

Eh? 'Treat as taking both hands to wield' is not a bunch of extra rules. It's actually a far simpler and elegant solution that 'increase Req requirements, treat both weapons as the given stat-line, can be used to dual wield, but you only get the bonuses if you use both of them'!

Also; what other Ultramarines Relics do you consider to be good for a low cost, out of interest?