I know some people were disappointed with the lack of options for playing Techmarines. Since I like Techmarines myself, and since I'm a fan of Iron Warriors, here's what I came up with:

Techmarine Training

Unaligned

Tier 1

Prerequisites: Chaos Space Marine, Champion or Forsaken, Tech Use, Int 40, WP 40, Can only be taken at character creation, One of starting Acquisitions must be spent on a Cybernetic (either a bionic limb or an implant system) of at least Good Craftsmanship.

The character may be a renegade Techmarine, or perhaps even one of the infamous Warsmiths of the Iron Warriors legion. Either way, he has undergone special training and additional implantation, granting him higher understanding of technology and access to best cybernetics.

Although the character doesn't receive the benefits of the Mechanicus Implants Trait, he is treated as if he possessed it for the purpose of meeting Talents' prerequisites. Furthermore, he is treated as a Heretek for the purpose of cybernetics' Availability.

So, how does that sound? I'm not sure about the second part, considering it's a Tier 1 Talent, but I want to keep it Tier 1 so it can be purchased at character creation.

looks good, but a quick question, why is it not available to Chosen?

Dunno

When I thinked about playing Iron Warrior my idea was to take Sm archetype not sorcerer and switch his archetype class with heretek trait voila done

Hygric said:

It just didn't feel right. I'm basing this on an assumption that only Iron Warrior Warsmiths and renegade Techmarines hailing from loyalist forces would have access to that kind of training, and Chosen doesn't fit the bill for those concepts as either Champion or Forsaken. Ideally, I'd have limited that to one Archetype only, to make those two concepts the only ones who can potentially steal the Heretek's spotlight, but the concepts are distinct enough that they warrant two Archetypes.

Balance-wise, it's probably not more of a problem to let Chosen play with those Talents than it is for others, so if you feel like trying it, you probably should.

Oh, and sorry for the delay in response - for some reason, the new posts indicator on this subforum didn't flare on my computer, so I thought nobody responded.

I think I'd take this another direction. I'd have a cost involved for the Techmarine package (500 xp ?) and what it does is allow you to have a CSM with the Heretek starting package (dropping irrelevant Weapon Training talents). That seems to be the simplest way to me.

How about Tech-Marine as an Archetype for Chaos Space Marines?

Techmarine

Skills: Tech-Use, Common Lore (Tech), Logic or Security, Forbidden Lore (Archaeotech) or Forbidden Lore (Xenos) or Forbidden Lore (Warp)

Talents: Technical Knock, Lesser Minion of Chaos (must be servitor or servo-skull) or Cold Hearted

Wounds: 15+D5

Gear: Legion bolt pistol, Legion servo-arm (interfaced with power armour), Interface Port, one common quality cybernetic implant.

Special Ability: Tech-Marine Implants

Tech-Marines start with Mechanicus Implants and a common quality cybernetic implant (noted above). The loyalty of any servitor or servo-skull minions is increased by +10.

HappyDaze said:

Consider that CSM characters get much more Skills and Talents from their "race" starting package than from their Archetype starting package, while for humans it's the other way around. Even if all of CSM's starting exp goes into choosing a human Archetype, I'm pretty sure it'll still be imbalanced.

@Decessor - I'd be reluctant to actually give the CSM the whole package you're proposing. Truth be told, you can already make your Legionnaire character a very competent techie. The sole reason I thought of the Talent in the first place was for the very rare cases such as IW Warsmiths, but I also wanted to make sure the Heretek still starts as a better techie overall.

Fair enough Morangias. I'm curious as to people's opinions on how balanced my suggestion is.

While the idea is nice, I agree with Morangias on the balance implications. If nobody were intending to play a Heretek, I can't see it being a big problem, but it isn't by accident that the technical and social skills have been kept away from the Astartes archetypes.

Not to bring this back from the dead, but there are other implications to giving tech-knowledge to Space Marines. Eventually a powerful tech-marine may search out the obliterator virus to improve upon himself. And then you've got a big bundle of near-game-breaking. Wielding exceedingly powerful weapons with no reload time and no need for ammunition depending on how you house-rule it.

Elgrun, I think you're overemphasising the issue with obliterators. Yes, they're horrendously powerful. But I very much doubt it's as simple as a techmarine saying "by the way, I want to be an obliterator now". It falls into the category of something that is powerful but can be worked towards as a goal, much like an apostate raising an army of believers or a champion seeking out a legendary daemon weapon. For the late game, I wouldn't utterly dismiss it as an option for a player but it'd be no easy thing to achieve.

Agreed.

First of all, obliterators are not the only ones who can get powerful weapons with infinite ammo. All it takes is for someone who lugs around a plasma cannon to score a slayer limb. Voila, infinite ammo arm cannon. Hell, the infinite ammo aspect is fully achievable by a sorcerer with daemonology, which is all you need to make a Daemon weapon. And that gets extra damage and special abilities too!

Secondly, Tech knowledge is already available to space marines. It's works like this "I spend Xp to buy Tech-use" and then they have tech knowledge. Possibly with the addition of "I talk to some heretechs" if you want your players to justify their XP expenditures.

Third, the obliterator virus doesn't require you to have Mechanicus implants. All it requires is for you to get infected. In short, it's something that's more or less equally achievable by any player in the group, helped only by access to Tech-Use and medicae, which, hey, doesn't require the implants either.

And, of course, Fourth: A character getting access to this virus in even the most potent of forms is, as mentioned, not that much worse than the Apostate who gathers an army or a Sorcerer who summons and successfully binds a greater daemon. If anything it's easier, since in BC personal power at arms is quickly marginalized by what a character can accomplish on a grander scale through social skills, tactical acumen and sorcerous might.

In short, Obliterators are not limited to space marines who are Tech-Marines, and they're no worse that what others can already achieve.

Of course, I find the idea of blocking an entire character archetype because it might reap little more benefits from a completely optional development that doesn't even exist in the rules more than a little extreme.

However, I do agree that straight up porting the entire Heretech skill section onto an existing Space Marine archetype is far too much extra stuff. Making a new archetype with a few tech-use skills, one or two implants and the Mechanicus Implants would be the "fairest" solution if you ask me, although it would be a bit of work.

I would make the argument that a slayer limb is neccesary to be an obliterator. also to cap down on cheese I think I'd make it that an obliterator has to switch between weapons. his body physically morphing to facilitate the barrel and workings of that weapon in his arm as a full round action. but also to me the obliterator virus is **** near the equivalent of apotheosis. also i would probably tell the character that his character is a time bomb. slowly acquiring insanity points as the virus takes hold, at a certain point he becomes unusable as a pc but could become someones minion or an assest in the warbands forces.

Zso Sahaal said:

Think Obliterators would work as an archetype?

My initial though is that Obliterators are unsuitable to start play as and should instead be something that a player can choose to build towards.

Decessor; That seems pretty balanced at first glance.

This is a great idea and you've got a strong base to work from here, but I think evaluating the other archetypes will give us a good idea of what we're looking at. They work out like this: Champion 1650 or 1700 total experience, Chosen 2000 experience, the Forsaken has 1800/1850/2050/2100 experience with considerable gear and the Sorcerer clocks in at a whopping 2250 experience (skewed because of Psy Rating). In comparison, your Techmarine weighs in at 900 or 1000. Here's how I would beef him up.

Add Scholastic Lore (Astromancy) or Scholastic Lore (Chymistry). This is another 100 XP which brings your archetype (500-600) into range of the ones in the book (Champions 700, Chosen 1050, Forsaken 600/850, Sorcerers 700). This also is a thematic representation of their time studying to become a Tech Marine.

Add Total Recall (250) and Armour-Monger (300) or Weapon-Tech (200) to their given Talents list. This would bring him up to 850/950 (from 400), compared to Champions at 950/1000, Chosen at 950, Forsaken at 1200/1250 and Sorcerers at a whopping 1550. Counterparts also have four talents, and Sorcerers (their closest analogue here) have three talents and enough xp in powers to buy up another two more talents.

The last issue here is equipment, abilities and others knicks and knacks (free Corruption for Sorcerers!). For those doing the math above, you'll quickly realize that Champions really get the short end of the stick here in virtually every department, which leads me to believe they're the most all-type party friendly of the CSM archetypes and even not counting that, your Tech-Marine is way underpowered in comparison. Implants are sweet, but I'm not sure they're 1000 experience sweet. As far as his more ample companion archetypes are concerned, Chosen would be near the same level in investment and have a far better ability. The Forsaken are still beefier and their ability is potent as well. Sorcerers are, as they should be, bigger and badder.

My suggestion is this:

Techmarine (1550/1650)
Skills: Common Lore (Tech), Tech Use, Forbidden Lore (Archeotech) or Forbidden Lore (Warp) or Forbidden Lore (Xenos), Logic or Security, Scholastic Lore (Astromancy) or Scholastic Lore (Chymistry)
Talents: Technical Knock, Total Recall, Armour-Monger or Weapon-Tech, Lesser Minion of Chaos (must be servitor or servo-skull) or Cold Hearted
Wounds: 15+D5
Gear: Legion Servo-Arm (interfaced with power armour), Interface Port, one good quality cybernetic implant.
Special Ability: Tech-Marine Implants
Tech-Marines start with Mechanicus Implants and a common quality cybernetic implant (noted above). The loyalty of any servitor or servo-skull minions is increased by +10.

This comes out to a little less than the other archetypes, but opens up avenues in terms of roleplay and utility otherwise unavailable to the character (and perhaps being even more pervasive than Sorcerers). They would also be getting kitted out better and that's not to be underestimated.

Yeah? No?

i like your archtype jedimike consider it stolen and thank you for doing the work i indented to do, now to create my god lol as my guys all want to play csm from my table top army

How about Tech-Marine as an Archetype for Chaos Space Marines?

Techmarine

Skills: Tech-Use, Common Lore (Tech), Logic or Security, Forbidden Lore (Archaeotech) or Forbidden Lore (Xenos) or Forbidden Lore (Warp)

Talents: Technical Knock, Lesser Minion of Chaos (must be servitor or servo-skull) or Cold Hearted

Wounds: 15+D5

Gear: Legion bolt pistol, Legion servo-arm (interfaced with power armour), Interface Port, one common quality cybernetic implant.

Special Ability: Tech-Marine Implants

Tech-Marines start with Mechanicus Implants and a common quality cybernetic implant (noted above). The loyalty of any servitor or servo-skull minions is increased by +10.

I have done that too, for Techmarines and Iron Warriors ... our archetypes are almost identical, so I find yours quite balanced and interesting to play.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/85332-making-my-first-charater-an-iron-warrior/?p=850804

1.2 years worth of thread necro. I am so proud of you.

edit: fixed timeframe