Yeah, tricky to price the ARV without knowing what the abilities do. I'd suggest putting it in the backburner until that info surfaces. I suggest we do the Jagdluther, now.

Well i was gonna do it without know the special rules then come back to it when they tell us what they are bc look at how long it took us to get an answer to what badass was for Johnny.

So what do you think about the Jagdluther then like loophole started? I'd say 49-52

Jagdluther it is then, although the effect of abilities that have already been suggested for the ARV's should be fairly accurate

So taking 40pts Ludwig as a baseline, +5 for the main gun dice.

For Armour I use +6 when upping to an even number and then another +3 when going to even, this is because of the way they allocate dice to guns, and the difference between A5 and A6 armour for example is pretty much zero, so +6pt.

At A5 I use +4pts for each wound so +16pts

This now totals 67pts, there is no MG, -2pts? = 65pts for Jagdluther

This formula appears to be fairly accuarate, using it to take Ludwig to Konnigsluther. Not tested it on anything else mind you

40pts + 10pt gun + 15pt armour + 30pt wounds (5pt per wound at A7 level) = 95pts (plus 1 for extra MG stats?)

I doubt it will take us too long to know what theses new skills are. They said there would be rules enclosed in the new units delivered, so someone will soon post something about it. So I think it's smarter to start with the units which we have no doubts about, and then move to those shiftier ones.

Anyway, Jagdluther... Cannon is just 1 or 2 points weaker than the Konigsluther, though it has no secondary weapon, and like the Konigsluther, no special abilities. In the armour and health departments, it's also 2 points weaker than the KS.

Now going from the other side. Cannon is just 1 point better than the Ludwig, and again no secondary weapon. Armor is 1 higher and health is 4 higher.

So, I think this sits pretty much somewhere in the middle between the Ludwig and the Konigsluther, which would be about 67. Weapons and armor is closer to the Ludwig, while Health is closer to KS, minus a secondary weapon that they both have.

So, my final take is... 63

Major Mishap said:

You and I are on the same page. I've looked at the numbers as well, and I completely agree with your breakdown - although I subtracted only 1 point for the lack of the MG. =)

(If the Ludwig had the MG 48, I'd subtract 2.)

I don't have a problem with people discussing possible point values. I think it's agood idea for those who want to try out suggested units. Several people have looked at existing units and worked on approximate point costs, and use their rationale here to validate their points. My son is not the only person that can do that. I've done it for games before, but haven't felt inclined to do it for DUST with other things going on.

My dislike of the poll idea is because a poll does not allow debate or explanation on why a value is assigned, just as posts that simply state, 'I think X value is right,' don't. Coming up with approximate values based on analysis of existing units' point values can give the community a better way of viewing and choosing what unofficial stats to use until we get official stats. A poll, especially a poll before much discussion has taken place, becomes a combination of values from people who have actively thought about how the new unit fits with existing units to people who stop in and simply pick a number out of a hat.

There are players who would like a value that fits, but don't have the time, ambition, experience, or whatever else might stop them from developing one of their own. If they use a poll that generates values that don't actually fit, but happened tp appeal to someone who decided to vote without thinking about it, they wind up with a value that doesn't work, and frustration.

Major Mishap did a very good job of explaining a rationale for assigning 65 points to the Jadgluther, and WTF added minor considerations for possible variance. The vote for 60 points on the poll doesn't, nor does it match any of the suggested values to date on the forum.

I could accept someone wanting to play with the 65 point value to try the unit out because of those arguments, but what does the one vote for 60 points tell me?

The pole it to help people not persuade them to go one direction plus its 4 votes deal with it. I'm sure the end of the month I'll have a ton more and people can look at it and say well the range of this walker is this and therefore I should make him it when making it fair for my opponent to play against me its not an acturate idea. Stop trying to argue with it bc no one cares.

And I totally forgot the 8 wounds over the 6 wounds I'd say bump him to 62-65 points.

So the poll is up for the Jagdluther vote if you'd like.

I guess next would be the LMC 46 it seems to have all it's stuff self explanitory?

I would say base is 40. I would say the same with mishap and do +4 for each wound over 4 so +24. Has no anti tank so -4. +20. Transports large amounts of models +15. +35 Has no ability to get on land and limits range of weapons to shoreside -5. +30

about 65-70 points. Would say close to 68ish. I mean its basically a fireball without the dozerblade, bigger transport, no anti tank, and can only be in water.

arkangl said:

You do realize that at the time of my post there was only a single vote, don't you? I'm happy you've gotten more, and can honestly hope this is the biggest poll you run to date, though I'll still see no value in it, as I don't in any online poll. Even 200 people is a very small sampling, and could include multiple votes by the same people to dilute the value further. But I can hope you get more votes, and that it makes you happy.

On the flip side, I know of people who care when they see point values, assume they're valid, and then find out they're not. I accept there are forum members and others who don't care, but I know there are people who do.

Something about your LCM suggestion I don't understand, however, is your statement it's a Fireball without most of the Fireball's equipment. When I checked the card, it says it's Armor 4, which is a far cry from the Fireball's Armor 7. It adds several damage points, but it also means the vehicle is completely reliant on other units for survival, as two .50 cal's won't touch anything above vehicle Armor 2, or with a range above 6. With a carrying capacity of only 8 Armor 2 infantry, or (or is it and?) a single vehicle, it isn't coming to shore with much support.

The carrying capacity is the oddest thing for me on the design. They've taken a 75' landing craft and only allowed it to carry a little more than a standard squad with a character. The smallest landing craft the US used in WW2 carried 30-35 soldiers, and those weren't big enough to carry a tank. The historical LCM's were designed to carry 60-100 men or a tank. If they mean it to be able to carry both, it would be different but more understandable, but what if someone needs to carry a lot of infantry without as many walkers?

Yeah, I'm puzzled about the carry capacity as well. How can a landing craft only carry 2 more soldiers than a heavy tank? And what do you even do with 8 soldier slots? A full squad with a hero and a couple of lone heroes? It should be 12 at the very least, just for playability's sake, so you can have a couple of squads with heroes attached. And the second line, as far as I understand it, means you can only carry a single vehicle, up to armor 4? (or is it 4 tanks?)

arkangl said:

68pts is rather high for a vehicle which can't attack vehicles, can't move and only has a couple of MG's. I can't see anybody taking one that's not compulsory as part as a scenario, so...

40pts basic as before

-30pts for no anti-tank weapon, I take from A4 value being the vast majority of tank targets.

+8 for carry capacity

+1 as 2x .50's are a bit better than a .50 and .30

+18 for wounds (3pts per wound at A4)

-12 as random number as it won't be able to move anywhere, and being used as a 2MG pillbox

Total 25pts

As the thread has gone quiet, I'd like to move onto the Bergeluther please, as I've one on a ship from China coming my way

The obvious comparison would be with the Loth as they are basically the same with no anti-tank weapons, so...

Loth pts 28

-5pts - The Blade is not as good as the Kampfzange.

0pts - I think Damage Resilient equates roughly to Self Repair

-5pts - I don't see Dozer Blade being used very often and of limited use, where Charge gets used every game.

+5pts - Engineer Vehicle (Repair 1 Wound on adjacent vehicle), I've yet to use this Command Squad ability, will it be any diferent with Bergeluther?

+15pts - Recovery Vehicle (Roll a hit to bring on destroyed vehicle). Now this is a very powerful ability, used every game with my Command Squads, but for probably 30pts of the Command Squads points of abilities, they get to bring on Squads, heal Squads and get extra actions for units!

That makes 38pts for the Bergeluther, pretty much the same as a Ludwig, would you always prefer to take one over the other, or would you juggle between them at these points? I'm thinking Ludwig most of the time at the moment; twin long ranged 88's against a range 1 weapon where the vehicle only has a move of 1 and unlikely to ever get close enough to use it but with the possibility of bringing back a tank......

I'll have to refrain from evaluating the Bergeluther for now because its abilities are just guesswork at this point.

I dont know about that one either. The Otto I would go for 40 only bc its the same points as all the armor 3 axis bots so that would mean at armor 4 hed be put up to the 40 mark. If you dont know the Otto is on the Official Dust Tactics FB page. Paolo Parente posted it. Also the Recon Mickey's card is up on the Dust-Models.com site.

The Otto is very similar to Hot Dog, both have 1/+ V infantry and 1/skull V armour. Hot dogs secondry weapons, the .50's are far better than Otto's but Otto had an extra attack against armour. Both have special abilities, no idea if one is better than the other. I can't really seperate them as to which is better - so 36pts for the Otto I's say, same as Hot Dogs.

I think the Hans is a great starting point for the Otto, they have the exact same weaponry.

Loophole Master said:

Yup, that comes to 31pts (+3pts for A4 and +4pts for extra Wound) plus whatever pts for Assault - 34pts?

It does lose Scout to get Assault, so I think the price increase would be minimal. 1-2 pts

Can some one link the Otto card I can't find it for the life of me.

Here ya go:

Cool so its basically Hans with armor 4 and assault, I like that.

I thank Mishap for the Otto card, which I have been searching relentlessly for ever since I heard about it from the TWC blog.

Though seriously, why the hell can't I find this facebook page everyone speaks of, or a link to it for that matter? And did they give any reason as to why they chose not to release Otto's card with the D48 pack even though it's been around for a while, meanwhile Ryu is a D38 model to my knowledge...

@ Mishap - Also, something to bear in mind while statting Otto is that Armor 3-4 is stronger than a normal odd-to-even step. There are several weapons that can effect armor 3 but not armor 4 (Grenade Launcher, Laser Pistole - B, Fliegerfaust, to name a few). But perhaps you're already accounting for that.

I have thought about the A3 to A4 step but not accounted for it so far. Apart from the extra weapons that damage A3 there are also a lot of weapons that do 1/3 and this has a big effect.

lol sorry i totally forgot I don't have a link to the Facebook Page I need to get that up. It'll be up tomorrow hopefully. I'm also in the process of uploading all those cards just been busy with getting ready for christmas and all.

I just ordered 3 walkers from Dust models... Otto, Barking Dog and Recon Mickey.

Based on the conversation in this thread, I'm going to use Otto for 33 points and Barking Dog for 46 points. Unless you convince me to use other points values...

What about Recon Mickey ? How many points I can use it for?

Well, the obvious comparisson should be to the normal Mickey, which costs 35 points. Ability-wise, it loses Self Repair to gain Artillery Strike and Scout. I think that's a fair trade, which maybe increases the cost by just 1-2 points.

In terms of weaponry, it trades the howitzer for an extra .50 MG and a .50 MG dual. It loses the ability to harm tanks, which was already puny in the Mickey, but gains some respectable anti-aircraft firepower. Against infantry, it's sort of an even trade. It won't do as much damage as the Mickey against full squads with heroes, but it'll fare better against unaccompanied and diminuished squads. Plus it has a bit more range, and the ability to target a greater number of different enemies at once.

Dunno, this is a hard one to judge. All in all it seems like a pretty even trade with the normal Mickey, so the price should be pretty similar. 36 AP?