In the current DW campaign that I'm a player in,my character development and events that have happened in-game are steering my Rank 4 Dark Angels Assault Marine towards the Deathwatch Champion advanced specialization[RoB,pg. 104-105]. I meet the all the Requirements,and I've nearly got enough XP saved up to purchase it. There's one problem,however. Deathwatch Champion really doesn't do a whole lot to help my character,and seems pretty overcosted for what it does. The breakdown as the class relates to my character...

Wargear=Meh. I currently have an Exceptional Quality Power Sword with the Razor Sharp quality[provided by a crystal from the mines of Arum from a premade adventure...The Emperor Protects,I think]as Signature Wargear[Master],so a second Power Sword is pretty redundant unless there's some reason I would be forced to bypass requisitioning a Power Fist or something like that. The Combat Shield is ok,but I'm a Two-Weapon Wielder,so I'm going to want to have a weapon in each hand in most cases,although I might pull it out for some protection against Hordes. Still,mathematically,it will overload 40% of the time it takes a hit for me.

Special Abilities=The first part of the Xenos Bane ability[chance to instagib a critter with fewer Wounds on a Righteous Fury] is pretty much useless to me. If my character Righteous Fury's on a Xenos with 20 or fewer Wounds starting,they are toast anyways. I should point out here that due to having a large group,our GM has house ruled that only Master level enemies go into Criticals for his sanity and to keep the game from bogging due to bookkeeping. Anything else gets killed when it's Wound Points reach 0. Toxic,on the other hand,is great,as I'm usually going to get that extra die of damage with my character setup. Distract is somewhat useful,but typically,if I'm tanking something for the group,I'm charging it. Still,I can see it's use in some circumstances.

Advances=Realistically,there's not a whole bunch here that I don't either have already or will be well worth waiting for,given the high XP costs. I can use Dodge +10 and +20,and Intimidate +10[not really sure why +20 wasn't also included]. Being able to to have 3 pieces of Hero-level Signature Wargear eventually seems to be the big payoff,but having just hit Distinquished,it will be a long road until I can get items worth having with them.

So,is there something I'm missing,here,or am I just totally off base and the Speciality is well worth it's high cost?

My group noticed this issue as well. Our thinking is that the Specialty is well worth the cost for NON Assault Marines. For Assault Marines it's not worth nearly much - I think we houseruled it to be something like 2000 or 2500.

As with most facets of this game, simply stacking specialisations is generally wasteful.

Blood Angel assault marine champion is overspecialised and self-duplicating. So is a Ultramarine, tac-marine Captain, and a Iron Hands tech-marine or a Black Templar Chaplain.

The designers have -cleverly- made horrific min-maxxing and over-specialisation give diminishing returns, thus preventing a lot of balance issues. This is a good thing, to my mind. Champion is supposed -as a class- to either add some melee ability to those who lack it, or to offer a very expensive diminishing returns upgrade to those already 'stacked' in melee ability. It's a clever thing when designers act to reduce the issue of over-specialisation, while offering less specialised characters a way to somehow close the gap on specialists (albeit at great cost).

For a melee character, the stuff is expensive, but you are getting it two or more ranks earlier than everyone else. That alone is worth the price. Add to that the sheer amount of wargear that you get, and that you can be walking around in relic armour before anyone else, and the template is still great. Plus you get bragging rights.

The price really doesn't need changing, to my mind.

*stupid forum*

Siranui said:

If the Deathwatch Champion is a class that is indeed designed primarily to add melee ability to other classes,then it is grossly out of synch with the fluff and backstory of Space Marine Champions in the 40k universe. The Champion's purpose is to take on the biggest and the baddest of the enemy in melee combat and demoralize the enemy by crushing their leader in single combat. A Devastator simply taking the Specialization to supplement their CC Talents isn't going to serving the purpose of the Champion. They are simply taking it to work around the inherant weakness in their chosen Specialization,which creates game balance issues in it's own right. After all,while the Champion hypothetically exists to give a melee buff to non-close combat classes,there is no Advanced Specialization that provides a ranged buff to close-combat classes. A Devastator that can slice Genestealers to ribbons with Lightening Attack,Wall of Steel,and Counterattack when the GM springs them on the character to keep them from blasting the closing Hive Tyrant to bits with his Heavy Bolter can be just as unbalancing to a game as an uber-specialized character with distinct strong and weak points.

Another issue is that overspecialization is REWARDED with several Advanced Specializations. Look at the Epistolary,for example. 2000 XP gets you 75 Requisition points of gear[MC Force Weapon+Psychic Hood],extra Psychic damage and a bonus on Oppossed Willpower tests vs. Xenos,and you can buy 2 extra Psychic Powers. Forge Master is another ridiculously good one for overspecialization. For 2000 XP,you get Artificer Armor and a Servo-Harnass at Rank 4 as oppossed to simply Artificer Armor at Rank 7 for 1500. Not to mention that he can add or remove a Trait from a Weapon before each mission. To top it off,look at the Forge Master's Advances. Armour-Monger 2 ranks early for the same cost. The Flesh is Weak 4 three ranks early for the same cost. Electrical Succor 3 ranks early at the same cost. Energy Cache 3 ranks early for 300 points LESS. Machinator Array 2 ranks early for 200 points less. Ferric Summons 2 ranks early at the same cost. Luminen Blast 2 ranks early for the same cost. That's a big problem with the overspecialization argument. You can't encourage it with some classes while discouraging it with others.

Some of the instances you give of overspecializing also still payoff,big time. BT Chaplain,for example. For 3k,you get what amounts to a Power Sword with +1 Damage and Penetration,+1 Armor in your head location,+10 on Intimidate tests,and the best Force Field in the game at Rank 4. The Wargear is worth the price of the specialization alone,not to mention Fearsome Presence,Liturgies of Battle,and Icon of Duty.

If anything,it seems like FFG found during playtesting that players other than Assault Marines were taking the Champion in order to make their characters CC monsters in addition to their primary niche,and FFG's response was simply to raise the cost of everything by an obscene amount.

I don't think it's primarily there for that, because it does improve assault marines, too.... just less so. When you push the envelope of power, the gains should not be the same as improving the mid-ground. There is still a lot on offer for the assault marine: 40req (1000xp) of wargear, TWO extra relics, all of the close combat stuff that they would otherwise wait several ranks for, and the special abilities. All good stuff. OR it allows a non-AM to replicate an AM's close combat abilities at a vastly inflated price.

Advanced Specialities should not be making characters simply 'better' than everyone else and pushing the envelope power-wise. That's what was wrong with 3e prestige classes. Step away from that line of thinking entirely. Advanced Specialities are an option. They should not be inherently unbalanced compared to the core classes. A character who takes a speciality is not 'better' by default than a character who has not, because the cost of that speciality should be balanced to ensure that does not happen.

The DW Tech 'speciality' class isn't really a problem to my mind, because it doesn't push an already dangerous envelope. Enhanced technical skills are never going to break a game in comparison to enhancing the melee skills of an already dominant melee character. (Techs already get Artificer armour at rank 4 I think, so it's hardly getting it early anyway.) Nothing on the Forgemaster list is going to make them 'too powerful' in comparison to the rest of the party, whereas that is a risk when a 'I'm not buying anything that doesn't make me better at melee' assault marine steps into a reduced-cost Champion package, and proceeds to overshadow other team members. The disadvantage of being a AM/Champion melee god who is far better than everyone else is that you will have literally no XP left for any other dimension to your character. That's a fair price, and doesn't need reducing, to my mind.

I can't comment on the DW libby option, because I've not seen one in play. From distant memories of a skim read, it seemed to me that you'd buy into it for the extra force sword damage, and everything else looked like a valid but balanced option that didn't really make them that much harsher. I could be wrong.

Insta-gibbing enemies with less wounds than yourself is not very useful, indeed.

Toxic on all attacks against Xenos that bypasses all kinds of poison resistance is pretty sweet.

If you're an Assault Marine, all the skills and talents won't do you much good, but not only Assault Marines can aspire to become Champions.

What really makes the Champion worth it, though, are two purchases of Signature Wargear: Hero. That's a lot of high-end equipment.

Overall, it's a decent option for Assaults, and a great option for Tacticals who want to do some meleeing (because apparently, Tactical Marines forget all the melee training they had as Assaults earlier and can't melee their way out of a paper bag).

Siranui said:

I would guess my rub is this. Compared to the other Advanced Specialties,both the cost of the Specialization itself is AND the cost of the advances are overcosted for what they do. I can deal with the class being costed where it is if the advances are more reasonable,or I can deal with the advances being overpriced if the cost of what you get with the class is in line with the rest. As it stands,it seems that you overpay for the class,then overpay for the advances on top of it. Most of the advances on their table are effectively just priced as Elite Advances,anyways,and you don't need to buy Deathwatch Champion in order to pay the same cost for those advances.

Two extra Relics isn't really a fair addition as a plus when compared to the other specializations,either. Forge Masters get two extra Signature Wargear:Hero's as starting gear[Artificer Armor and Servo Harnass]. That's 2700 points of gear for a 2000 point specialization,not to mention the fact that because you get it as Starting Equipment instead of Signature Wargear,you skirt having to actually have the Renown Requirement to get the gear. Our group is Rank 4,right now,and we have 41 Renown each. Same thing with Epistolary. You get a Signature Wargear:Hero[Master Crafted Force Weapon] and a Signature Wargear:Master[Psychic Hood],which is 2500 XP of gear,for a 2000 point class.

Realistically,Forge Master does much more to increase a character's combat potential than it does to improve his tech skills. Pretty much all of the talents listed in their advances are combat related. Between the Artificer Armor you get for purchasing the class and the Armour Monger and The Flesh is Weak 4 talents you can purchase early,you can be running around with an armor value of 19 in all locations,not to mention you can give the Breaching Augur you mounted on your new Servo Harnass the Razor Sharp quality. That's 4d10+17 Damage with a Pen of 14[provided you hit with 2 degrees of success] with the Power Field and Tearing qualities. Plus,if you have a reasonably good Toughness in the 50's and you take Machinator Array,you can be walking around with a base soak of 30. You can do ridiculously broken combat cheese within the rules with Techmarine/Forge Master,so the fact that it's a niche class really doesn't hold a lot of water.

So one class can be broken, so others should be reduced in price to make them as broken?

That's not great logic! Fix the broken bit; not break the functional bits.

For an assault marine who doesn't want to buy ANY of the talents you still get:

Toxic quality and insta-kill on xenos.... that's worth about 2000xp to my mind.

Power sword and shield... maybe these will just be spares, so let's just call it 500xp

Bragging rights and roleplay consideration... a good 1000xp there... but others may consider it zero, I guess.

A few discounts on skills you were going to buy anyway... call it 500xp worth.

Extra relics, on the cheap. Even after the cost of buying them, it's still worth an extra 1000xp, to my mind.

I think that's kinda worth it. In fact: It is. If not... there are other choices to be taken.

Via Champion an assault marine gets to be 'better' than a fellow assault marine. If you put yourself in the shoes of a combat-optimiser: What are you giving up? Nothing; because if you take maximum XP for a normal assault marine, you can't spend all of it on combat blag anyway, and *have* to 'waste' some on non-combat skills. Whereas this class - for those desperate to excel - improves the maximum power threshold as a melee character AND gets you at that maximum earlier, to boot.

If someone wants the class but complains it's 'too expensive', then they still *want* the class. Asking for a discount is really just haggling for something that you want to buy anyway. If you want it enough; you'll pay. If not; you'll find something better.

Try this: Get your blaggiest assault marine player who cares only for melee ability and nothing for anything else, say 'no' to his requests for discounts and y'know what... he'll go away, do the maths, come back in a few weeks after whining about the cost some more... and if he's done his maths right I reckon he'll *still* buy it!

It should be a difficult choice to take; not a no brainer. It should not suit every assault marine, and at least 50% of them should be electing to look elsewhere. If this class was a no-brainer for every assault marine, it would be a failure.

Cujo999 said:

Maybe the forgemaster and apostolary are cheap so that Techs and Libbys don't all try to become Champions...

Remember that the Tech was going to get relic armour at rank 4 anyhow. The extra Champion relics are 70 point slots (as well as the 40 points he gets gratis), giving the character access to three 70 point relics, rather than the 1 that everyone else save the tech marine gets. That's massively good. That's relic armour, a frostblade and an iron halo or mastercrafted storm shield. Golden. Brilliant. Worth chewing an arm off for (yours or someone else's!)

As to over-paying for advances... I would happily pay those advance costs as a character who couldn't otherwise ever get an extra parry, dodge, or melee attack. The point is mooted with an assault marine, as they can already buy those advances, and if they want to pay a premium to take those options early... it's their choice to make.

Also: You need to use the Oath of Glory more...

Do mind, unlike DH and RT the specialisation gives you an extra table to chose you advances from, it does not replace your current level!

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Blink...blink...

I have gone through several different Advanced Specializations and illustrated how the starting wargear and abilities are equal to or greater in points cost than the cost of the class,not just one. Either a bunch of classes are "broken,"or there is a problem with Deathwatch Champion being overcosted. I think that your idea of what the Advanced Specializations SHOULD be just doesn't jive with what the Advanced Specializations ARE.

I already explained in the OP how due to the GM's house rules,insta-gibbing Xeno's is completely useless. Only Master level enemies go into Criticals in our game. That leaves Toxic as being worth 2000 XP in your mind. You do realize that you can give any weapon the Toxic quality using the Arcane Weaponry Inquisitorial Support option from RoB for 15 requisition[plus it works on anything,not just Xenos],right? That's worth 2k?

There is also no other Advanced Speciality in DW where you have to effectively pay XP to access to the Advancement Table. I don't know where you get that from Wolf Scout from First Founding costs 200 XP,and it gives you Sure Strike and Swift Attack for 500 XP,Crippling Strike and Precise Blow for 800 XP,and Lightning Attack for 1000 XP. And before you say it,Wolf Scouts do also get Power Armor,and can choose to take it instead of Scout Armor at the start of every mission.

If I'm sticking myself in the shoes of a combat optimizer,Deathwatch Champion makes no sense to take. If I built a Rank 4 Assault Marine,then built the exact same character with the same stats and just gave him Deathwatch Champion on top of it,he is not 4k better than the original character. I can make the original effectively just as good in CC with 15-30 points of Requisition,which is 500-1000 XP in game terms. Or,if you're like my group and have an Apothecary with Create Toxins,then the Champion is ONLY better IF you're fighting Xenos and IF you're in protracted engagements. And if you're fighting against Chaos Marines,Daemons,and/or Heretics,you have the exact same CC capability. Champion is a 4k advancement,so you should be appreciably better in those circumstance. For another at Rank 4,you can ALWAYS buy combat stuff. It costs an Assault Marine 14,600 XP to completely top out WS,Strength,Toughness,and Agility,not to mention Sound Constitution and the CC advances in your Tables.

If you want munchkin power gamer math,what I COULD do is take Deathwing Terminator for 3000 XP,run around in Terminator Armor all the time,have all my Melee attacks be Devastating[1] and Felling[1],use Arcane Weaponry to make them Toxic as well,buy my CC advances at their normal price as I come to those ranks instead overpaying to get them early,then use all that extra XP to buy an extra Signature Wargear:Hero as an Elite Advance,since I don't have to spend my normal one on Artificer Armor,since I have Terminator Armor. I'm not doing that because it doesn't fit the story progression of the character and it would flat out destroy the power balance in the group.

In the end,I spoke with our GM and some of the other players about the issue,and the consensus was that while the class was priced fine for a NON Assault Marine[Techmarines and Libby's can broken stuff with it,however],it didn't work well with AM's at all. The GM's solution is that any of the CC advances on the Champion table that are also found in the Assault Marine table can be purchased at the cost on the Assault Marine table,provided the Champion is an Assault Marine.

Tyrrell said:

Our GM has a pretty free policy when it comes to Elite Advances. Basically,it comes down to the bid system,where you tell him what you want to pay for the advance,and he says yes/no based on that,provided you aren't trying to do something ridiculously broken. The rule of thumb when it comes to advances from within your own tree is double the cost listed in the table. I could buy Preternatural Speed and Whirlwind of Death for the cost I'm shelling out to become a Deathwatch Champion.

That was my original attitude too; the problem is that you are subverting the rank system this way. Players tend to be keen to pay the price for the really great abilities early on. If they do, there is less incentive for being keen to climb the ranks because you got talent X already.

Alex

Cujo999 said:

That's a local issue, not a rules issue. That your group's house rules don't work with a given rule isn't a problem with the published rules.

Cujo999 said:

Applying Toxic that way can't affect Tyranids, while the Deathwatch Champion's fake Toxic quality can (because it's not actually poison, it just uses the same mechanics). Further, this assumes that your GM is always willing to just let you acquire support options, particularly easily-abusable ones like Arcane Weaponry, whenever you want without question.

Cujo999 said:

It costs so little because it's designed to be taken by a Rank 1 character, and because it quite heavily alters the as-written capabilities of the Tactical Marine specialisation - it basically takes away the all the specialisation's leadership and interaction capabilities as well as costing 200xp. Most of the Wolf Scout advance table exists to provide some appropriate replacement for those lost abilities.

Wait wait wait. So this whole arguement hinges on GM house rules? Well **** my GM lets us all have Carnifex steeds so now I feel spending experience on pretty much everything to be a waste compared to our herd of Fexes

I'm generally going to second #1's post in every aspect, and just raise additional points.

Remember too that SW Scout is the only speciality class that the player will take. They are trading short-term gains and losses against long-term ones. It's also a class that -as #1 said- completely changes character scope and *takes stuff away* from the player.

The price of Elite Advances is also not overly relevant, as they are a GM-call kind of thing, and optional. A lot of GMs don't allow players to pay a few hundred XP to get Talents 4 Ranks early, which means that Champion offers something that you can't get anywhere else. We also don't allow characters to buy otherwise 'out of niche' things as elite advances and thus sidestep the base classes, but I realise that is probably a niche houserule and not relevant.

Comparing to a rank 4 with/without champion isn't a viable comparison, as you need time-in-class to make it worthwhile. You need to hoover up that +20 Dodge and the extra wargear. As I say: Iron halo, relic armour, relic blade, power shield, combat shield all as wargear for 3k. You cannot buy that elsewhere.

You can't wear Terminator armour on any/most missions generally. It doesn't climb ladders well. And Arcane weaponry specifically states as I recall that it comes from the Inquisition and is pretty unusual, so may not always be a valid choice that the GM will OK. And an Elite Advance of hero-level wargear 'just because' would not fly with a lot of GMs... So basically, the 'better' munchkin build involves a generous GM who always hands players what the book says they can *potentially* have, and who never puts a set of stairs into an adventure. Whereas the Champion provides a no-arguments-fully-within-the-existing-rules solution, straight out of the box.

In short: If your GM is already giving you the moon on a stick for 300xp a time and house-ruling all manner of cheaper options, then Champion isn't particularly cheap. But that's not a universal situation.

Siranui said:

For reference, my username translates to "no-one here", not "number 1 here". The latter is arrogant, the former is a nod to many hours playing Unreal Tournament when I was younger, with an alias that would show up as "no-one here" when somebody trained their crosshairs on me...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Which is why the house rule was given in the OP for context.

Fair point that the Champion's ability works against Tyranids,however,the GM restricting support options like Arcane Weaponry would be a "house rule" in it's own right. You can't argue against a point saying that there's only a problem there because of house rules when it supports your position,then turn around and propose house rules to support your position,as well. You can either debate the RaW,or you can debate how the current rules interact with house rules,but not both. If you want to argue that the class is pointed properly because insta-gib is valuable by the RaW,then you must also concede that by the RaW,anyone can duplicate Toxic with a few Req points. Either way you do it,you will have one major antagonist that your Toxic won't work on[Chaos in the Champion's case,'nids in the Arcane Weaponry case].

You sort of missed the point,here. If I take a Leadership oriented Advanced Specialization,like Watch Commander,the cost of leadership advances is not vastly inflated. Wolf Scouts sacrifice,yes,however the cost of their CC advances is not ridiculously inflated like the Champion's are.

Siranui said:

The call on Wolf Scout is pretty simple. If you're not going to be a leader-type character,you take it and trade your leadership functions for increased stealth and melee capability. You seem to be big on character's growing into buffer stuff. Do you think it's neccessarily balanced that a Rank 1 Space Wolf Tactical Marine can be running around with Counter Attack,Lightening Attack,and a Power Sword[with the Tac Marine Deed "Right Tool for the Job"] after a couple of game sessions?

Need time in class to make it worthwhile? You are missing a couple of key points,here. For one,in the hypothetical my Assault Marine vs. some other Assault Marine,you are neglecting to mention the fact that my AM will be underpowered while I save up 4000 XP to buy Champion. They will be better for pretty much all of our advancement through Rank 4. Then I hypothetically surge ahead during Rank 5-6 until evening out at Rank 7-8. Looking at the Advancements from Champion and how they relate to Assault Marines...

Dodge +10/+20=The "Normal" AM gets Dodge +10 at Rank 5 for 100 XP more,so no big whoop,there. Not that you're terribly worried about buffing Dodge at this point,since by this point you should have Wall of Steel and Counterattack,so Parry becomes your primary defense. It's useful in conjunction with Step Aside,but if you're working Assasin's Strike properly,there won't be a lot of times where you're sitting out in the open waiting to get shot at.

Assasin's Strike=You're dumb to buy it for 1000 XP as the Champion when you can buy it at Rank 5 as an AM for 500. Just spend the 1000 XP you need to level on something else and save 500 points,so no advantage there.

Combat Master=As dumb as it sounds,if you're getting ganged up on in CC,you almost WANT the enemies to hit so you can Parry and Counterattack to get extra attacks on them instead of having them just whiff. Combat Master can actually be counterproductive for an AM,so it shouldn't be a high priority for a Champion to buy at 3x the cost.

Crippling Strike=Nowhere near cool enough to justify spending 5x[2000 XP] the cost just to do +2 Critical Damage a rank or two early.

Step Aside=Normal AM gets this at 6 for 1200 less. This is a very useful ability,but the cost is pretty prohibitive.

Blade Master=Very cool ability,and 700 XP to get it two ranks early is fair.

Realistically,the only thing I'm getting besides Wargear that's better than my counterpart is Blade Master and Step Aside 2 ranks early for 2.5X the base cost and an extra +10 Dodge until Rank 8. Every other CC talent in Champion besides those listed above,an AM already has access to at Rank 5. That's not a dramatic power boost at all,and you can more than overcompensate for that by spending the XP spent there on stat boosts and other Talents. The extra +10 Dodge the Champion gets is easily nullified by using the XP saved to top out your Agility stat.

You do realize that the Iron Halo and Relic Blade[athough I don't know why any AM with 2-Weapon Wielder would take a 2 handed Relic Blade and lose an attack],completely offset the value of the Power Sword and Combat Shield? And that's 7500 XP,not 3000.

The Deathwing Terminator Advanced Specialization in First Founding gives a character a suit of Terminator Armor as Starting Equipment,and may choose either it or his Power Armor at the start of the mission. That's the RaW. Character's in Terminator Armor CAN climb stairs,ladders,etc,etc. Just because you get a -20 penalty to Agility doesn't mean you can't. In fact,a Space Marine in Terminator Armor still only counts as Hulking,so by RaW,you can't even pull the "it's too tight for your character to fit,but the others can" trick. A GM saying that you can't climb stairs or ladders is just a GM making a house rule for the express purpose of discouraging a player from taking Deathwing Terminator instead of just saying,"Look,if you do that,it's broken,and it's not going to be fun for the other players."

Arcane Weaponry is Inquisitorial Support,but nowhere does it state that it's rare or uncommon. Limiting it's use would once again be a "house ruling." I find it funny throughout this discussion that you keep leaning on house rules that you believe SHOULD be in effect to argue against broken things perfectly legal by RaW. Your house rules don't seem to cut both ways,however.

Why in the world would anybody make Signature Wargear:Hero unavailable as an Elite Advance? A big theme behind Elite Advances is that it's a means for character's to be able to buy things that they hypothetically should be able to get based on events that happen in the game,but their Advancement Tables don't allow them to have. If you buy a Frost Blade,for example,with your Requisition points every mission,and you destroy all manner of enemies of the Imperium with it,then it makes perfect sense within the storyline that the Deathwatch would deem you worthy of carrying the weapon as a piece of Signature Wargear. Signature Wargear is truthfully one of the easiest things to explain as an Elite Advance.

Not being a gamer elitist with this last quip,are you? Bottom line is this. You have repeatedly talked out of both sides of your mouth on this issue. I had an issue with a rule(s) I felt needed changed. You support the RaW on the Deathwatch Champion,believing changing it would be broken,while using house rules to try and debunk numerous other even more "broken" character builds based solely on the RaW. You think it's ok for some classes to be overspecialized to the point of being broken,but not others. You reference things in the RaW as being "house rules." Correct me if I'm wrong,but it just sort of seems like you have your opinion,and that's your opinion,but you don't seem to have a really good working knowledge of how the Advanced Specializations within the game relate to one another in costs and benefits.

I don't have RoB here, but I think that it says in the text that Arcane Weaponry is from the Inquisition and rare, or at least that's my recollection of it. Given that; it's most certainly not a house-rule to say that it's rare and you might not have access to it, just as players are unlikely to be able to freely requisition the relics in FF without making them wargear, because it says so at the start of the Chapter. RAW extends to non-mechanical requirements as well.

Watch commander is actually a good point... useless for an Ultramarine Tactical, due to over-specialisation. Should they get it for free?

Wolf Scouts are supposed to be incredibly rare and not an automatically valid character choice, as per the RAW at the start of that chapter. That's partly why they are not balanced, I suspect.

No: It's not a dramatic power boost at all. That's the point: It's not supposed to be. It's an *option*. Taking it as an AM won't make you dramatically better because (thank god) it's not a 3.5 Prestige Class that is mandatory for every close combat wombat. It's an *option* that gives you more weargear and stuff. But if you *are* looking for a power boost, then if you can talk your GM letting you have that at a reduced cost, then best of luck to you!

As regards Terminator armour, yes: The player can say I'm wearing it' at the start of the mission by RAW. But RAW doesn't write adventures. and that RAW '-20 for climbing a ladder- doesn't dictate how sturdy the ladder is. You can't assume a choice is valid because the rules say so. Your character might need to cover 300km at a jog, or cross a bridge that won't hold a terminator suit, or crawl through a duct backwards, or frankly a hundred other things that cannot be done in the armour. Terminator armour is not always a valid choice for a mission. I'd say that only about 75% of missions I've seen would be suitable for a marine in such panoply.

Once again: RAW extends to fluff, as well as mechanics. One cannot use mechanics to counter something that is clearly spelled out in fluff. In the case of this game, those mechanics are built on the well-developed fluff.

Gamer Elitist? You came here asking for an opinion, clearly to take back to your gaming table as discussion points. Now we've discussed it and disagree, and that makes me gamer elitist?

Siranui said:

I do have RoB,and it says nothing about it being rare. In fact,the section for Inquisitorial Support states that the Inquisition helping the Deathwatch via support options is quite common. There is no limit put on Arcane Weaponry,aside from the Renown requirement,so yes,any ruling that limits it is a house rule.

Watch Commander is useful for an Ultramarine Tac. You get an Iron Halo for free,and extra requisition points every mission,if nothing else.

Sigh... I think a huge part of your problem here is that you don't recognize that the norm for a Deathwatch game is not having 80+ Renown available at Rank 4 or 5,which you've repeatadley alluded to thoughout this discussion with comments like "Techmarines get Artificer Armor at Rank 4,anyways" and "You don't take Oath of Glory enough." The way advances and Honours are distributed,the general renown progression is planned to be Respected at Rank 2,Distinquished at 4,Famed at 5-6,and Hero at 7-8. Now,maybe the extra Signature Wargear Hero's are a huge buff in your group where the only thing that seems to be keeping a Rank 4-5 character from walking around with all the best gear in the game is Requisition points,but in a more traditional Renown structure,it's a long haul until you hit the point where you can buy anything worth the Talent. You're also missing the point that if I'm running around with Artificer Armor,an Iron Halo,and an uber CC weapon,there really isn't a whole lot for me to spend my Req points on,so I'm just going to be kicking them into the group fund for my fellows to use.

Well,if we're talking logic and fluff,then Deathwatch Champion needs pretty much completely rewritten. By logic and fluff,you are chosen to be a Champion because you are a Chuck Norris in Close Combat,and the class is best used when you're becoming a Champion so you can be halfway decent in CC. If we're talking logic and fluff,it should provide AM's with a lot more benefits than what it does.

When you make snide remarks about our groups GM with stuff like "offering the moon on a stick for 300 XP",then yes,you are being an elitist.

Then I'm mistaken. My initial glance at the Arcane Weaponry section caused me to raise a bit of an eyebrow on the 'WTF' front, and I thought I'd read something about it being fairly uncommon. Given the enormous number of combinations of Arcane Weaponry though, I might not make everything the players want easily available, but that would be a house-rule and out of scope.

It's really not useful for the UM tac. You're paying 3000xp for a the Iron Halo and either a random amount of requisition, or a random amount of Cohesion, and preventing yourself from taking any other Speciality. It's over-specialising, and the system doesn't reward you for it, for many of the same reasons that Champion is of little use to the AM (except instead of stuff costing tons, it's all stuff that you've already got!).

I'd be interested to know what the norm for renown is. Maybe we are off-piste with high renown, but it hasn't seemed hard to get: A clean slate on every mission, combined with oath of glory and some heroic deeds has raked it in at not-quite-double-digits-per-mission. At 1000-1500ish XP per mission, we're getting 3-4 missions per Rank and it's not seemed a problem to get a little over 20 Renown per Rank. How does that compare to others?

Kicking Renown into a group fund so that the Dev can have a Suspensor or whatever is nothing to be ashamed of, and benefits everyone. Still: If you're uncomfortable in spending XP to do that, then just buy an Adamantine Mantle: A brilliant piece of kit. Or strap a missile launcher on your Termie suit! Additionally, Relic Armour may *only* be obtained via Wargear, and can't just be 'rented' with Requisition, I believe. So for a 'normal' character who wants Relic armour, they're not going to be able to have another relic or 'big toy' without wiping out most of their Requisition.

I'm not making a snide remark. I'm stating that if you play with a GM who is not generous with Elite Advance prices, uncomfortable with them, or does not like allowing Elite Advances for 'trademark' combat talents that aren't within your class list, then Champion offers a no-quibble out-of-the-box solution; just as many of the other specialities do.

Siranui said:

It's not even a house rule though - house rule implies a legislative change. It is GM's fiat, an executive measure. The text even encourages the GM to impose limits if he feels it is necessary.

Alex