The rules for Called Shots changed back in Rogue Trader, making Called Shots into a Full Action iánd a Hard BS/WS test instead of just a -20 modifier to any attack made.

I never really liked this change, but now with BC it goes even further because you do not get the +10 bonus given to Standard Attacks.

But why?

How come I can make an aimed shot at a servo skull at my regular BS, but If I try to hit the head of the fellow standing next to him I don't have time to Aim, and get a -20 penalty?

Selecting the right tool for the job doesn't really help either, but illustrates the "problem" nicely. Lets say you have an Accurate weapon, and take a Half Action Aim before shooting at the Servo-skull. A Head-sized target buzzing around at normal range, it modifies the shot with a -20 penalty.

Aiming with an accurate weapon gives a +20 bonus, and the Standard Attack another +10. So your net chance to hit the little skull is BS +10.

Now attach the skull to a body, and all of the sudden the same shot becomes a Hard BS test, requiring a full action so no time to Aim. It's suddenly much harder to hit the "same" target.

I'm considering just keeping the DH version. What have you done with Called Shots?

I'm houseruling called shots to just add another -20 modifier to other attack actions. So a called shot with a standard attack would be -10, -20 for semi auto/swift attack and -30 for full auto and lightning attacks. Only the first hit counts as hitting the desired location and the rest follows the normal rules for multiple hits and locations.

I won't allow called shots witht he all out attacks, as it represents a desperate lunge and doesn't allow for much finesse.

Darth Smeg said:

The biggest consideration to make is that if Called Shots is simply a modifier, then it can be applied to any attack, at any time. That is, as far as I'm aware, the main reason for making it a separate action - to prevent people making Called Shot All Out Attacks or Called Shot Full Auto Attacks.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I don't really see the problem in that (except for all out attack). It is possible in real life to aim for someones head, arm, torso er whatever, and shoot either a single shot, a burst or full automatic fire. I wouldn't expect to hit much with the latter (now that full auto has been fixed to make it -10 instead of +20), but it is possible.

I don't really see it as abusive either.

Indeed.

The question is, if you're able to do all those things against a had-sized target (Like a servo-skull), then why can't you do it against a head?

I can aim a burst, or all out attack a flying skull, or a little squirrel. But not a head or a limb stuck to someones torso. Not even the torso itself, either.

This actually makes me think of a problem I have with the all out attack option. The point of the option is to increase your chance of hitting someone in expense of your ability to evade incoming blows, but we allready have the aim option for increasing your chances of scoring a blow. I think it would be much more logical if the all out attack options increased the damge dealt to the target instead of maiing it easier to hit.

The all out attack action could for example give the tearing quality to a melee attack if it didn't have it allready, and maybe proven (3,4 or 5?) if it allready have the tearing quality.

It just seems strange to me that a blow that sacrifices part of your control would make it easier to hit an opponent.

@Jackal_Strain

All-Out does not sacrifice control so much as for example sure footing. By overextending your reach to bring that blow home instead of aborting your attack and returning to your starting position, you can't dodge your enemies' next strike because you're literally caught on the wrong foot and with your guard down.

I may be nuts but no-one seems to have mentioned that a servo skull is a small target so should have -20 to hit due to its size

That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry if it was not made precisely.

Miniscule (Autoquill, Knife) -30
Puny (Bolt pistol, Servo-skull) -20

Shooting a Puny target gives a -20 Modifier to a BS test.

Making a Called Shot gives a -20 Mofifier, removes the +10 Standard Attack bonus, makes the shot into a Full Action thus preventing you from combining with Aim on the same turn.

So in scenario 1 we shoot a servo skull or other puny target (-20) at normal range(+0). We decide to use a standard attack(+10), and the Aim(+10) action. Net result is a BS +0 test.

In Scenario 2 we shoot someone in the head (Called shot, -20) at normal range(+0). Net result is a BS -20.

Interestingly we could change scenario 1 to Shooting a Minuscule target (-30). This still results in a BS test at -10, which is actually easier than shooting the head (or leg, or what have you).

So with the funky rules with the Full Action and no SA bonus it is harder to hit someone in the leg than it is to hit a knife. Uh hu.

There are three ways to approach this, essentially:

a) Of course a small target is generally easier to shoot than a small-target-attached-to-a-large-target. Consider: How easily can you shoot an ant? Granted, the shot isn't easy, but the target will hardly be able to move out of the way because it's comparably slow. On the other hand side, how easily can you shoot a mole on a person's skin? That may be harder since twisting the appropriate body part out of the way is actually pretty easy for a large creature.

b) It's simply a matter of game balance. You can generally kill everything simply by hitting it anywhere while called shots are essentially a luxury. Thus, "hitting at all" is made simpler even though it should technically be the same difficulty. Further, most enemies in combat are either medium-sized or possibly hulking, so the rules have to be most consistent and most balanced for exactly those targets.

c) Noone's compared the rules for head-sized enemies with those for shooting heads.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

My group doesn't have a problem with this, because we recognize that the act of aiming is to simply hit any part of the target (which by the hit location rules will likely be the body, which is how it should be), whereas called shot is basically aiming for a specific location.

We have a Chaos Renegade with a Long Las that is constantly taking Called Shots with no issue, He usually spends a full round aiming, then the next turn making the called shot. With all the bonuses he's getting from everything else about him he is still fairly proficient at pulling off a headshot and the difficulty gives the player more intangible reward when he pulls it off. To him, shooting someone is easy, but when he strikes someone right where they're their most vulnerable and makes the hit he's electrified. It's a great experience.

The same is said for a Night Lords Raptor who uses Called Shots to decapitate people, but to a much lesser extent.

Just a quick question, as I've only glanced at the damage rules in BC.

Is there any *real* reason to make a called shot?
In previous games most creatures and NPCs had a fairly even distribution of AP on their locations, notable rare exceptions being some armour sets missing locations.

The head critical tables are more lethal, some helmets have fewer AP than other locations, certain suits of power armour have a reinforced torso location and any important character is obligated by contract with the universe to not wear a helmet, lest he be degraded to faceless mook status.

Cifer said:

Which makes Mk 8 Power Armor the greatest achievement of humanity. Too bad the Imperium has no resources to issue it en masse.

(For those who don't play Deathwatch, Mk 8 PA has a chance of deflecting any hit on the head to the torso instead.)

WittyDroog said:

Of course. But my point is that you are free to Aim and shoot "normally" at a Body-sized target, with only a size-modifier to your "normal" attack roll.

But once shooting at an actual body, the penalties accumulate much more rapidly.

If I have time to Aim at a cherubim hovering next to your body, why do I not have time to do the same to your body?

The rules are what they are, but I can find no good explanation for why they changed this after Dark Heresy except for "Game Balance".

But are Called Shots really that overpowered? Even after investing lots of XP for the necessary talents to remove the penalites for Called Shots, you still lose the +10 Standard Attack bonus as well as the ability to Aim (on the same turn. I know you can do Full Aim, then Called shots on every other turn).

You still lose a +20 bonus on what in my view is "the same action".

Firstly, it's possible to make Called Shots as a half-action if you're inside a suit of power armour with working auto-senses. Thus, you lose only the +10 bonus.

(Presumably, it would be possible to ask your heretek of choice to scavenge a PA helmet and include its sensor suite into another helmet if you don't like leaving footprints in concrete)

Secondly, that -10 you retain from the single shot after maxing out your Shot-Calling abilities can theoretically (best case) translate into 10 points of additional damage if you're shooting someone in Power Armour without a helmet and thus get into Crit territory where your Crack Shot kicks in.

The fact that there exists some more-or-less unobtainable (for most people) gear that offsets some of the penalties for the Called Shot action does not make the initial observation any less puzzling.

Shooting at a small-sized target that is part of something larger is much harder than shooting a similarly sized target that is not part of something else.

I find it hard to accept that shooting a flying skull is easier than shooting somebody in the torso.

I conclude this pedantic rant by reverting to the original Dark Heresy rules for this particular action.

Darth Smeg said:

Simple - when shooting at a part of something larger, there are other parts that can (unconsciously or deliberately) get in the way of an attack. That isn't the case for a single smaller target. It's not the size of the target that matters, it's the necessary patience and inherent awkwardness of trying to guarantee a shot to a particular part of a larger target. Remember that the rules assume for a standard combat situation that everyone is inherently trying to defend themselves and avoid making themselves an easy target; with that in mind, I don't see the restrictions as being particularly unreasonable.

Beyond that, from a strictly mechanical perspective, the penalty needs to be sufficiently significant to make it an optional risk - the penalty and the necessity of it as a separate Full Action are both to ensure that it doesn't just get used at every opportunity without a second thought.

As for benefits... there is one that isn't quite as clearly stated, as it isn't covered in the rulebooks. Called Shots can be used to target crew and passengers of open-topped vehicles. With that in mind, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that a Called Shot is the action for a GM to require for any similar sort of "shoot out a particular piece of a given target".

It's odd - I've never heard any complains about Called Shots until this thread; indeed, there was a thread on the Dark Heresy forums a while ago that was calling for the bonus damage from the Accurate quality to be restricted to Rogue Trader-style separate action Called Shots.

Darth Smeg said:

It's not really the same action, though.

When you make a normal attack, you're attacking at the first opportunity of getting a clear shot. Sometimes, that's a head if you're lucky with your timing, but sometimes you just take a shot at the arm or leg, because those were the first things that lined up with your sights. Aiming in this context doesn't mean so much lining up your sights better as it's focusing more of your attention on the opponent, predicting his movements and seeing more openings.

When you're making a called shot, though, it's headshot or bust. You don't care how many times the guy was in a perfect position to stuff his chest full of lead, you're trying to get a clear shot at his head, no matter how much the bastard keeps waving it. And it's always a more difficult shot, because it's hard for an experienced shooter to not follow the movements of the whole body, but all one needs to miss a headshot is the target suddenly ducking a little. Aiming in this context means, again, taking more time to line up your shot, or perhaps waiting for the half second the bastard keeps his head still.

Cifer said:

Personally I would preferred a ruling more on the lines of "Called Shots are only possible with Standard Attacks" if their intention was to prevent called shots with full-auto and the like. Personally I don't have a problem with that being possible, but I can see the problem later on when you might as well make all attacks be called shots as you had negated all the penalties (I don't see the problem in melee, as at least there you have had to close with the target, exposing yourself, but with ranged attacks it would basically render all but full body armour useless. With my suggested ruling it still would be vs single shots, but not burst fire, encouraging more "single shot between the eye" duelist types). At least with my suggestion you would have to forfeit the possibility of extra hits.

At the moment I could rarely see the point of called shots (and making it essentially a -30 now makes it even less appealing). The penalty is significant, and the difference it makes is usually minor as most enemies that they are publishing at the moment seem to have near identical armour across their entire bodies, and though the critical table changes where you hit, the boost from that is minor compared to the almost certainly much more significant damage boost you would get from other attack options. Either you spend your entire turn making a "Called Shot", at a penalty or -20, or you can make a "Full-Auto" attack at -10, getting the chance of multiple hits (increasing damage) and you still have a half action to do something else with (including aiming, turning it into an attack at +/-0). You can improve your chances with talents, but they still don't strike me as terribly appealing with called shot being so hopeless in the first place.

"It's odd - I've never heard any complains about Called Shots until this thread; indeed, there was a thread on the Dark Heresy forums a while ago that was calling for the bonus damage from the Accurate quality to be restricted to Rogue Trader-style separate action Called Shots."

- I have had an issue with it since the Rogue Trader change, I just haven't said much about it. The change to attacks in Black Crusade just made it even worse, as most of the attack options became half-actions meaning the justification for choosing called shots became even slimmer. The Accurate damage boost you have to spend a full turn carrying out to get the bonus (half action aim, then standard attack) but you get a good boost from it (as you say, a boost that some possibly argue to be too good, but at least there is a very obvious justification for using the whole turn doing it).

I'm just doing

Called Shots are the Dark Heresy version. As in, -20BS/WS to attack a specific location. You CAN autofire/swift attack a specific location, but it still follows the Multiple Hits Charts (IE: five shots from full auto on Called Shot: Body won’t all go on the Body). Note that you cannot use Called Shot for All-Out Attack.

Because you know what? When you fire the first shot, it"ll hit the head. The rest just won't. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Actually, the second hit will also hit the head.

But I agree: The benefit of headshots (or Called Shots in general) is the possibility to avoid armour, and IF the person has spent the required XP to gain the Talents to negate the penalty for Called Shots, then I say Good on him.