Sorry if I'm stepping on toes here as I am a player playing a Space Wolf but my campaign I'm in isn't a Deathwatch one it's a Rogue trader one. But that's not my point. I'm unsure of how books read this helmet. But to me it shouldn't be to difficult to maybe request one from the chapter master for your deeds to prove that you have earned such respect with the deathwatch and the helmet would be helpful to you with your team. The helmet from what I can tell based on what the book says is pretty much the same as a normal space marine Helmet for the exception of allowing us Wolves to use our sense of Smell while completely protected vs having to take off the helmet and use as a half an action to put it back on. If a player of another chapter has a problem with a helmet that all it gives is him the ability to use the wolf sense solo ability then the player has some real envy issues. It's not like it gives a AP of 9 or anything. It's just a simple allowence to use wolf sense while his head is protected at the same time. I do like the idea of it being a reward for some great feat but the wolf is there to do the job and is basically showing himself to be a good wolf while killing all the Xeno's he can for his chapter. Also on the Wolf Priest thing from what I can tell everything for it acts the same as the equipment listed on the page stated in RoB except it looks more wolf related instead.

HappyDaze said:

I figured it was whatever mark as matched the rest of the character's armor. Or if he has a cannibalized/rebuilt helm, roll accordingly.

I'm inclined to generosity. If the player already had a nice helmet, say from the history table, I'd match capabilities so he wasn't just screwed out of some other feature.

Kshatriya said:

It can't be one of the Mk1-Mk4 Hemets because it's AP is 8 but this is irrelavant as these Helmets won't offer any better Auto Senses. Same for Mk5, Mk7 and Mk8. Only the Mk6 Helmet offers a +15 Auto Senses and if you look at it's design it has got an additional Sensor on the left forehead which all popular images of the Wolf Helmet lack.

herichimo said:

Where I am from, N/A means Not Applicable. It doesn't make sense for it not to be available on legal forms if the item I have doesn't apply.

That said, the way I would handle it, and a GM to me previously, is that you can request it, but you have to request it from the Chapter, not Deathwatch. Any self-respecting Space Wolf worth his salt is going to continue getting Fenrisean Ale, so, he gets a helmet with his shipment. Of course, he may have to wait a mission or three to get it, but, overall, it's not that big of a thing to raise a hulabaloo out of.

Honestly, making a Knight's Quest for an item that has a relatively minimal effect, while it may be in the spirit, is denigrating the Knight's Quest. This trope stems from Galahad's Quest for the Holy Grail. Is this a Holy Grail to anyone? Not in my book. Like asking the Librarian to Quest for his Force Sword before game starts as a prelude. Save that stuff for actually Relic quality gear.

Too much sweating the small stuff, in my opinion.

Buliwyf Hagnarsson said:

Accronyms can mean more than one thing. In the sebtext of legal documents it does indead usually mean not applicable. In situations involving availability of items, stocking, and ordering (buying things online for instance) it means Not Available.

In this subtext It means the following, taken straight out of the main Deathwatch rulebook page 141, second column, 6th paragraph, 3rd sentance,

"Items listed as N/A are not typically stocked in Watch Station armouries." [sic]

Which means, Not Available.

herichimo said:

Very strange, so this means the DW Armoury has neither any normal Scout Amour nor any DW Scout Armor stocked?

Uups even Standard Ammunition is not available. One good thing you don't need to play with the new weapon stats beacause there is no need to rebalancing since any other weapon than standard issue you requisition (plasma, melta etc.) can only be used as clubs. They got no ammunition - until you award your player with the holy Plasma Flask after a knight's quest for it, of course

Even stranger is the fact that the Wolf Helmet is the only Wargear in all DW Publications that has N/A for Requisition but still a Renown requirement.

Come on, there are a lot of contradictions in any FFG publication and it's really up to the GM to fix them until some errata clarifies the issues. In most cases common sense should be enough and obviously the Wolf Helmet was designed to fix the way how a Space Wolves Solo Mode was handled in the core book but not on the first mission. Maybe the idea was that the first missions aren't to dangerous because every player has to develop his character into a fighting machine but after reaching Respected Elite Adversaries become a common threat and a Space Wolf player without it's helmet will be at a serious disadvantage. First they wanted to stay to the fluff (Ragnar only wears his helmet if there is really no breathable atmosphere because it impairs his senses) but over time they realized this error and invented the Fenris Wolf Helmet which hasn't this ability in any other publication about the Space Puppies I know and was originally only for style.

And for the lawyers out there:

"Items listed as N/A are not typically stocked in Watch Station armouries."

only means it can`t be requisitioned because it's not stocked in the armouries. There is nothing mentioned of a knight's quest for the holy grail to get this item or would someone ever consider a Lasgun an unobtainable sacred relic for the DW? How the Wolf gets it's helmet is up to the GM but the easiset way is IPS (imperial parcel service) delivers it straight from the Space Wolves Chapter's armoury after reaching a Renown of Respected, but if you really hate the Space Wolves then make a quest out of it, it's your game.

Kain McDogal said:

By that logic, Chaplain helmets are all Mk 3 because only Mk 3 helmets have AP 9. And that's obviously not right. AP value is not a conclusive determination of what mark of armor a particular piece of armor is from. IMO, art design does not control crunch effect either. Hence why if a character is in full Mk 6 armor or rolled on a table and got a Mk 6 helm, or had the option to pick and flat-out picked a Mk 6 suit, I think that if they later get a Wolf-pattern helm or a Chaplain helm, it's purely punitive to either take away the effect of the roll/choice by forcing a pick or denying the ability to use their Solo Mode or their best possible wargear in most dangerous circumstances.

Kain McDogal said:

And why should the DW keep stores of scout armour in stock for Space Marines? How many times do you think a space marine in the DW sits there and says, "well, hyuck, I think I wanna leave my old trusted power armour whom I've battled countless foes with, who holds the honor of the countless heroes who wore it before me on the rack so I can go into battle with puny scout armour." Space marines live in their armour, it is part of them, they bring it with them from their chapters (its why you can't req PA). Why in the world would any watch commander or quartermaster ever think a space marine would ever want to go without it. On those rare instances the mission demands marines wear scout armour the DW would hunt through all of its resources throughout the sector, get some made by the Mechanicus, make it themselves, or ask a nearby chapter for sets.

Regular ammunition, seriously, thats a really weak argument. Let me put this to bed right now. When you requisition a weapon, any weapon, the requisition cost associated with that weapon includes as much basic ammunition you think you reasonably nead. Don't believe me? Read the 2nd sentance in the first column on page 158 of the main rulebook.

If you absolutely need a reason why basic ammo is N/A, its so certain 'special' players can't waste requisition on ammunition they can't use. I don't know why anyone would think a space marine needs to be able to carry around some plasma casks the whole mission without a plasma gun? You think you'll find a random plasma gun sitting around out there ala first person shooter style? Or perhaps theres another reason your really want that plasma flask, "well, uh... Quartermater I need 3 plasma flasks." Quartermaster, "And, why is that, you are not issued a plasma gun for this mission." Marine, "well, uhhhh, I just need them." Quartermaster, "Get the Hell out of my armoury you damned plasma sniffer! Damned addicts..."

As for hate for the space wolves... Maybe we should give them a free counter-attack talent? Or a free Frenzy talent? How about a new silenced bolt pistol? Or a new ability allowing you to deal 1d10 extra damage to hordes that doesn't take up a special ability slot? How about 2 different solo modes you can use in squad mode? How about a chaplain helm with +1 ap and a "still smell the world" ability?

Yeah I can see how the Space Wolves aren't getting enough love. Your continued persistance to attempt to convince the community this helm should be a free gift conjours in my mind thoughts of a player holding up a printed page of this forum saying to a GM, "see the FFG forums says its supposed to be a free handout."

herichimo said:

Following your logic a Scout Armour would be harder to requisition than any other equipment. A Kill-Team needs some for their mission so a sector-wide hunt for all avaiable Scout-Armor is started sounds not very plausible and of course ammunition is available for every weapon you requisition. This was only an example for the inconsistency in FFG publications. Maybe it would have been better if they used a fixed Requisition like 10 or 20 for the Helmet but the fact they didn't means they wanted a Space Wolf to be able to use it's Solo Mode Ability with an adquate protection for free and to leave any possibility open how a Space Wolf can get this helmet. By the way to be a normal DW Chaplain costs 3000XP and to be a Wolf Priest costs 4000XP and the Wolf Scout is a compromise for players who want to play a little Ragnar, but by RAW they make poor Scouts compared to a Raven Guard.

Of course I love the Space Wolves but I'm a GM sorry and I haven't played DW as a player for over a year but it seems you fear some of your players might do this. The manner you present relevant content of a rule book (2nd sentance in the first column on page 158 of the main rulebook) reminds me of some lawyer forcing it's way through a labyrinth of paragraphs towards "justice" and a lawyer fears nothing more than another lawyer with some "hard written evidence" (but the forum says ...). As I 've written earlier it's your game. If there are no clear rules and even if you don't like the rules play it your way but don't force other groups to do the same.

herichimo said:

Following your logic a Scout Armour would be harder to requisition than any other equipment. A Kill-Team needs some for their mission so a sector-wide hunt for all avaiable Scout-Armor is started sounds not very plausible and of course ammunition is available for every weapon you requisition. This was only an example for the inconsistency in FFG publications. Maybe it would have been better if they used a fixed Requisition like 10 or 20 for the Helmet but the fact they didn't means they wanted a Space Wolf to be able to use it's Solo Mode Ability with an adquate protection for free and to leave any possibility open how a Space Wolf can get this helmet. By the way to be a normal DW Chaplain costs 3000XP and to be a Wolf Priest costs 4000XP and the Wolf Scout is a compromise for players who want to play a little Ragnar, but by RAW they make poor Scouts compared to a Raven Guard.

Of course I love the Space Wolves but I'm a GM sorry and I haven't played DW as a player for over a year but it seems you fear some of your players might do this. The manner you present relevant content of a rule book (2nd sentance in the first column on page 158 of the main rulebook) reminds me of some lawyer forcing it's way through a labyrinth of paragraphs towards "justice" and a lawyer fears nothing more than another lawyer with some "hard written evidence" (but the forum says ...). As I 've written earlier it's your game. If there are no clear rules and even if you don't like the rules play it your way but don't force other groups to do the same.

Sorry for the double post. This forum is to slow.

herichimo said:

Because normal power armor imposes a -30 to move silent and concealment, and every marine that was ever a scout knows the value of the scout trade? And no one said the had vast stores, if it's NA, as the rule says, it's 'not typically stocked.' It does not say "not stocked." Typical is the key here. It does not mean "Not Available." In addition, if the DW had a mission that required scout armor and had to search the whole sector for a set, the mission could be delayed by months. And if N/A was truly not available, how would you ever get a vortex or stasis grenade then? They just put those in there for fun to tease players? C'mon now.

Then look at Rites of Battle, and you'll see all kinds of discrepancies in how they fill out the table.

• The Clavis is listed as "-*" because only Keepers can get it, but it's standard equipment for them.
• In the exact same table the Rosarius is listed as "N/A" yet it's in the same category as the Clavis- the Chaplain get's it as standard issue and other people won't be given one
• On the next page you see the Crozius Arcanum, it's got a "-" for req, but again, standard issue for Chaplains
• The Skull Helm, also standard issue to Chaplains, is "N/A."
• Deatwatch Scout Armor is also listed as "N/A." And BTW, there is a full page write up of the DWScout Armor, including how the DW goes about making it, and how the Erioch armors modified it to suit their needs, so I'm not sure how you could say that armor doesn't exist in the armories

As Buliwyf says, it's simple helmet that let's them use heightened senses and still maintain their AP on their head. It's not that big of a deal, and the GM should figure out how best to deal with it. There is nothing really there in the RAW to indicate otherwise, and everything really hints at "The GM should decide how the player gets it and what it takes to aquire it." It's not there to say "Here is a helmet you want, but too bad, it's impossible to get."

Kain McDogal said:

Whoa!

Like heck they do!

Scouts are eyes and ears. Scouts are not ninja attack-bots. And the Space Wolf is better at scouting that the Raven Guard.

Ravens get the stealth skills, the stealth re-rolls and bonuses and get to do it in power armour.

Wolf scouts get stealth skills, stealth re-rolls, perception skills and perception re-rolls. They are better at scouting, and really just as good at sneaking when not in PA, to my mind.

Kain McDogal said:

"Following my logic"

Do yourself a favour and never use that argument again. First off its childish, second its an idiot's argument, and third it's plainly obvious you do not understand my logic.

Watch commanders would not send space marines into a quick, spur of the moment mission with scout armour. They'd go with their normal power armour. Any infiltration or stealth mission would have significant amount of planning and research done before hand. During this planning period they would acquire all the resources needed for the mission, which would include any scout armour. They would acquire it in whatever means they need to. They would not maintain a stock of scout armour 1 for 1 for every marine in the watch, at best there would only be a few in any station, and no commander is going to let their forces go out and use limited resources on a whim. (I am disappointed I actualy had to explain this.) Additionally, I do enjoy when those arguing against take a single reference out of context to use against me. Thats very proffesional that is.

Speaking of the argument that theres no suggestions for how to deal with N/A items, thanks charmander for pointing it out, the vortex and stasis grenade entries indeed do have examples for a GM how to handle them. But don't take this as me stating watch captains have wolf helms to pass out.

I don't see how listing all of the new equipment in the same manner as all the rest of the new and old equipment equals inconsistancy. They are lists of the new wargear, so they should have all the wargear available in the lists, whether you can normally acquire them or not. This is actually the opposite of inconsistancy (you know, consistantly listing all the wargear in a standard format is... well... consistant). How is that so hard to understand.

I listed the page and reference because you've obviously missed it. How many times have you read over the rules? Well, I decided to assume you missed it. Theres no other reason an intelligent person would use an argument so obviously refuted by the rules, unless they missed it.

I have no fear of my players looking for free handouts. They all have plenty of common sense and understand Space Marines exist in a meritocracy type of environment. They understand in order for a space marine to deserve a reward outside of the rewards they would normally recieve, especially a reward their brothers would not get, they would personally have to do something above and beyond what is normally expected of them.

We could keep this going for a long time. You could keep coming up with newer and ever more complex ways to support your argument, and I could keep on shooting them down, but it serves nothing to the OP. Therefore am going to call this an end to this. Unless actual honest to god new information is presented concerning the OP I won't respond to any more comments.

herichimo said:

I know the Internet is a horrible medium for debates like this, but from reading your prior posts it is very easy to interpret your point in such a way as to think that you felt that the watch stations would have zero suits of scout armor, and using scout armor was beneath non-scout marines, and that marines would essentially be forced to use scout armor. Adding that to your repeated insistance that "N/A" means "Not Available" (which is in fact one of the possible meanings of the term) rather than 'special' or 'not applicable' makes Kain's conclusion kind of easy to see.

herichimo said:

I don't think that you are saying that, but I do have to think that you'd agree it's fairly odd that the helm is one of the only things in the book that doesn't talk about how to give it out when it has a - or an NA for its req That to me feels like an oversight from the authors and editors. I think it's simply between the player and his/her GM as to how they can aquire it. I would however, agree that it's unlikely there are more than a single wolf helm in the Armory (and that helm would probably have found its way there by accident, as chapter wargear is likely to be returned to the chapter, even in and especially in the death of the bearer).

herichimo said:

It's not in the same manner, some things are "-" some things are "-*" and other things are "N/A." They're in the same table, and they mean similar things, but they're for some reason labled differently. And the Hesh Bolters also specifically call out that they're Ultra's only (which bugs me, but that's a different topic), and they denote it with "Special" and a comment at the bottom, not a -, a -* or an NA.

herichimo said:

For someone frustrated with someone else being 'childish' in their arguments...

herichimo said:

herichimo said:

I don't know if it's childish or an argument of an idiot to think a theory ahead, because then only childish idiots are good at playing chess, but I admit at this point I can't understand your logic anymore, one time something out of the rules means clearly this for you the next time the same thing means something other just how it suits you.

And I must also admit even though I've read over the rules over a hundred times there may be still some parts I have missed (english is not my first language) otherwise there will be no need for me to read and post in this forum and I'm always glad if someone gives me new facts. On the other hand personal assumptions are something we can debate about but I don't count these as facts. By the way my "argument" was nothing more than an ironic interpretation of your assumption but then in the FAQ Section of the Errata there is an answer concerning the ammunition supply of SM and according to this a SM will have unlimited (or the rule of 3) ammunition for his Standard Issue and Signature Wargear weapons but this would mean requisitioned weapons (not Standard Issue or Signature Wargear) will come without any ammunition and this has to be requisitioned as well which will be a little difficult because ammunition (other than special bolts) got N/A under requisition and this would back up my ironic interpretation, but obviously the information in this answer is only another example for the INCONSISTANCY with the rules and with common sense everyone (except for some GM's who won't let their players requisition additional weapons) will know this rules clarification includes ALL weapons. Don't get me wrong this is not one of my "newer and ever more complex ways" to support my argument which waits to be "shot down by you" but only an example for not sticking to one word in the rules if the common sense tells otherwise.

And I think there is nothing complex in my argument that if it's not in the rules you can play it the way you like, maybe for you. Sadly this is my first post without any content related to the actual topic but I can't tolerate your insults.

Here's what I got from Andrew Fischer:

The Fenris-Pattern Wolf Helm is a piece of technology prized by the Space Wolf Chapter, and not something that any Space Marine in the Deathwatch could simply obtain with requisition. To reflect this, the Wolf Helm isn't given a requisition score. Instead, the player and GM should work out through roleplay some way in-game that the Space Wolf obtains his Wolf Helm. Perhaps it is a relic passed on to him by a dying Space Wolf they encounter on the field, or, more simply, maybe it was sent to him by his Chapter to mark the honour of his service in the Deathwatch. It is up to the GM to help work it into the story, and use it as a reward for the player.

So, just do whatever you want with it.

You're welcome. And of course, big thanks to Andrew for clearing that up.

Ok I see this is all over now, but I just kinda have to point out that Harl Greyweaver, you know the Forgemaster of Erioch, yeah he's an Iron Priest, which means a Space Wolf, so if he felt like it he could just make one for a character that impressed him or got on his good side.

And just to quell this bit of arguing, being in the Deathwatch is "above and beyond the call of duty". So it isn't just your standard hike through murdertown, everything you do in the Deathwatch reflects on your Chapter as a whole, so gaining Renown is in itself doing something for the betterment of your Chapter that most of your Battle-brothers at home won't or can't do. So becoming Respected by the most feared alien killers in the galaxy is shining back on your Chapter and doing them great service, so why wouldn't they want to make you more effective in battle and less likely to die tragically?

I'm just saying......