Looking for some comments, discussion regarding a player complaining about how dangerous Wfr is, and yes, he comes from D&D

Yes, I know us "hardcore" players stand in line to ridicule people who come from D&D, and have a hard time getting used to the chopped of limbs, and lack of instant healing. But he's a good roleplayer, and quick to learn.

Warning, some spoilers from TEW.

Last campaign we played he played a Verena priest, and didn't come any where near combat (don't think he swung a weapon a single time), so this time he wanted to try something different, and went with Bright Wizard.

Now he comes from D&D, so first and foremost I think he pictured sending fireballs left and right, and of course since he was never wounded (apart from a boot in the face, giving him one wound), he still had a fairy-land picture in his head, with a cleric healing all wounds after combat...

I was of course surprised that he never registered his fellows struggling with constant crits, and one being unconscious for a whole session, but guess some players have "tunnel vision"....

In this whole story, it's fair to say that his master of the order, has told him that there's two kinds of bright wizards, those who stay out of harms way and end up doing studying deep down in the orders libraries (geeks), and then the ones who reap glory and fame, but in turn risk their necks.

His parents were great wizards (and died like that, like 99% bright wizards end up, dying while risking their necks... I play Bright wizards as the cool-kids, an order all want to join, but also the order with the largest amount of... dead wizards ), so he wants to be such one as well. BUT, he's by no means brave, he just tries to be.

Anyway, we've kicked of TEW well, and they've come across Steinhägers little basement in the sewers, and two players venture into the room, while two stay outside (amongst them the bright wizard).

The guardian demon appears, and everyone rolls terror roll (I play this encounter, in all my TEW campaigns, as scary as possible, where it drips black frost, kinda like liquid oxygen...) 3 fails (amongst them the wizard), and are now frightened. But they don't really flee...

The demon is clever, so tricks them into believing he can't leave the circle, but still... they're frightened, and yet they don't leave.

After some meddling about, trying to avoid the circle, the wizard has been standing still for a while, and suddenly the demon leaps out of the circle and attacks him. It delivers 8 wounds (no armor...), and also 1 extra stress (now he has 3) from frightened condition.

I fully expect everyone to flee now, and most prepare to do so, trying to distract the demon and all, but the wizard starts channeling and casts. He fails the cast (doh, 4 challenge dice... no wonder...), and is stuck with 11 power (4 WP, so 7 above equilibrium). Next round one player tries to save the wizard, bravely hits the demon for 3 wounds, and then the demon pummels the wizard down with another 8 wounds + a crit, resulting in... 16 wounds, 1 crit from attack, 1 extra from going unconscious, another 7 wounds from excess power leaving him and 7 stress, houserule gave him another crit as he hit rock-bottom from 23 wounds.

Okay, the others gets him out of there, and to Shallya temple.

With 1½ hour left of the session, he was out, but he still managed to get rid of 1 crit, and some wounds (I always roll open, and the Shallya priest rolled a sick sick first aid roll), making it likely he was rdy the next session.

Now he'll be fragile as hell, but he'll be up next session.

But now he started complaining about the harshness, and how it stops the campaign when someone gets hit that bad (I argued it only stopped his char, and not the campaign...).

Well, I am always open to discussions AFTER a session, and the player respected that.

So my argument is:

- He's a wizard, has no armor etc... so should flee like hell when a freaking demon is breathing him in his face!!!

- He was frightened, so had every reason to flee

- This is no fairy-world, it's rough and gruesome, and I also told him I'd be surprised if half of the players didn't have to make a new char. To this he complained that it's hard to delve into a char, if they stand to die, I argued it was hardly a big loss, seeing as they didn't roleplay being frightened...

- It's a demon!!!

He's arguments are:

- It halts the story

- Wizards are to weak, as he wasn't able to cast a spell (engaged + quickcast...???), funny thing is, the last who played a wizard also complained, I really really like how they balanced the most overplayed "class" in all of roleplaying history!!!

My only problem here is... that I don't want them to go totally overboard, and flee from everything, they will afterall be facing many dangers later on.

But then again, it might be fun to have the later ritual go through, never tried that in the campaign

Its pretty easy to play WFRP if you stand out of harm´s way everytime. In my nearly last play, one char managed to dodge all attacks, hit hard every foe and took no damage at all (**** wood elf). The other 2 players (Ironbreaker and Brightwizard) entered the fray and took damage, the bright wiz got stuck down. The elf player was grinning, laughing and saying "Wow, I love this game". The others didnt say anything except "**** Wargor".

In the last session, the elf took his toll. Fighting inside a house, with no space for manuvers the ironbreaker shined and the wood elf got badly hurt. In the end of the session, he start bitching "awn, this system is too lethal. It dont help ranged attack characters. I wont play again this". The other 2 started to laugh.

I feel your pain, but this problem isnt a problem. Its a player whining. So tell him to act like a real player. They must learn to stop hitting everthing and think a little.

Our troll slayer routinely takes hits that would kill any of the other players stone dead. We have a tank. An actual tank. It can get pretty difficult to actually hit the buggers. So really, if they haven't learned how to turn an ironbreaker into four-foot armoured pain magnet, then they deserve to die.

too perilous for him then. sounds like this isn't the game for him.

I would suggest not mocking your player (later, maybe, when he can join in the laughter) and instead remind him what the game is about. Look at the big picture, and think about the genre. Compare it to films: DnD may be like a Hollywood action movie: exciting, fun, special effects... but not very scary.

WFRP isn't DnD in medieval Europe. It's a different game and a different genre. It's Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet, Alien, etc, etc. The story is not about a hero defeating evil in a big fight at the end of the movie. The story is about character development, tragedy, and the heroism of fighting an evil you can at best beat back temporarily. It is about sacrifice. There is plenty of good opportunity for roleplaying. Think of Douglas Bader (WWII pilot who lost both his legs: he wouldn't be quite so famous if that hadn't have happened). Hell; think Darth Vader: would he have been as cool if he hadn't been horribly burned and forced to wear a noisy respirator?

Rather than making fun of the player, invite them to take up the challenge, and encourage them to live up to your expectations of them: not as someone who'll 'take it' without moaning, but of someone who'll roleplay all the way to the grave/asylum/witch's pyre.

Remind them that it's unlikely they'll 'win' by killing all the baddies, and they certainly won't live happily ever after. Victory is partial. But it's personal.

Something else you might want to do, as the story moves ahead, characters develop, and more NPCs and locations become familiar, is emphasise the social links of the characters. That way, when a PC dies, the replacement NPC can have some connection to the group. I don't suggest a 'you killed my brother, I will get revenge' type connection. Rather a 'now that my wife has left me and I'm about to be declared bankrupt, those ruffians who show up in my pub every now and again are in town and looking pretty beaten up. Maybe they will take me with them?'

Well, we've seem to have resolved it, he just needed to have it all sink in, and now wants me to educate him a bit more about the magic mechanics, so he's better prepared for the problems/options. I think he was shocked at how difficult it is, and wouldn't have reacted so had he known better just how bloody hard it is to cast magic, if you want to do it every turn.

Regarding telling them how Warhammer is, I told them that unlike D&D and such, they're not the heroes. The heroes are Emperor Karl Franz (according to the public) and such. Well, I also told them that heroes are also the farmer who manages to put food on the table each day, despite the hardships Lords and Clergy lays on him, but that's more philosophically.

Chances are that they'll die a gruesome horrible death, and all that will remain is a fragile memory in a few persons, but no statues will be erected, nor will their deeds be written down by historians. Some few may rise above this, and leave their name, but Warhammer setting is not designed to end like this.

I told them that while it's not my goal to kill them, I will not in any way hinder their deaths, as I believe player deaths is a lesser evil than GM saving players. But also that I don't design a campaign that will kill players, but that they're bound to make stupid choices, which in all likelyhood will result in at least 1-2 players dying.

For instance, I will never say: "You fall down a hole, with a huge monster", which in turn kills them. But if they say "Chaos rules!" in the middle of a town square, I will not let them escape with their life, unless they pass some hard social tests.

They've seem to have accepted these premises, although they were a bit sad that our last campaign ended with them "winning", but at the cost of two characters lost. And with lost I don't mean dead, because that would have been fine by them, two of them ended up as mutants, with the Amber wizard ending up as a bloated fat raven, who fell into a great river and drowned. Not the hero death they had expected...

Spivo said:

New Zombie said:

Ha ha! Agreed! That's fantastic! One to be rightly proud of!