As a tech marine the ability to use and improve cover with your own ability and the evaluate skill is important. I have been carrying arround metal doors, pices of wall, and in one case a car sized vehicle to basically use as a shield in fire fights.

In D&D and Pathfinder there is something called a tower shield that is so big it behaves as cover. I was wondering if there was something in warhammer 40k that I could requisition that is similar, insted of having to constantly find things to improv with. This would also add an elliment of balance as it would mean that I have to pay some of my requisition to gain the armor advantage.

Note I am aware of the existing power shields equiped with force fields, but I am looking for something more primitive, and that I can improve using the cover rules.

technomarkus said:

While not exactly primitive, a suitably large shield can be found here . Those boarding shields appear to be designed for Astartes use in mind, with placement for weaponry (bolters, etc) on one side (similar to the space provided for shotguns on Arbites Suppression Shields), and an auto-sense link sight mounted on the top edge of the shield to allow the Space Marine to see without exposing his head to enemy fire.

Thats perfect...any idea what the stats are or what cover it provides?

It's already designed to be armour. I'm not sure welding some wriggly-tin to it should provide a player with any advantage, and I'm rather surprised that your GM lets it fly. It's not far from claiming your power armour is cover and that you're taping on some more bits of metal to increase it's armour value!

Well first its my class power so I should be allowed to use it. 2nd the navy shield from inquisition says that it provides cover. My power is to improve cover, I dont see the problem. Not only that but I can use evaluate to figure out how best to use the cover and get the highest bonus possible.

From our perspective, it is the job of the player to make the best character he can following his own character concept within the provided rules to be as powerful as he can be, provided he is acting within the theme of his character. It is the GMs job to work with the characters he has and to make sure that everything is challenging and not impossible, or if it is impossible to give the characters an option to leave (though we almost never take it). Outside the box thinking that allows for ridiculous damage/defense is rewarded not frowned upon.

technomarkus said:

Basicly you are totally right. So, why don't your PC take something like a big leave from some plant or a big piece of cardboard, "improve cover" and "evaluate" it to give it something like 8 mayby 10 AP? For me it is perfectly fine. It would be like haveing a second layer of power armour. Made of cardboard

Well usually i grab scrap metal that has been laying around, or a door or logs cars etc... but I thought it would be cooler for the character concept to actually use a shield. The servo arms could just cary a vehicle around if I really wanted, but it would get in the way of other activities, and would limit the use of servo arms.

Also leaves and cardboard do not provide any cover. you need at least one point of cover to be able to improve it. If you were being sarcastic, well enjoy your negative little world.

technomarkus said:

Leaves and cardboard provide cover of 0 AP. And I can't find the statement that the cover I want to "improve cover" or "evaluate" neads to provide at least one point of AP (bee so kind and say where it is, cause i just can't see it anywhere, maybe I'm searching the wrong chapter. The rules for one thing sometimes are in different places of the book and it generates confusion sometimes).

0 Ap is the same as saying no AP. So you cannot improve it.

No, there is no rule that states that thing cannot have 0 AP. Everything can have AP(or it should, cause it says bout its durability), but something can be so frillage that we take it as providing no change. If it has 0 AP it still has AP which i can improve. If you do not have any apples amount of apples you posses is equal to 0. But if you buy 4 apples your amount of apples is equal to 4. I use creativity to find unusual ways of using things. I am thinking outside of a box. So for me evaluated and improved cardboard or leaf if legit.

technomarkus said:

The important word there, repeated multiple times, is cover. Not armour, cover. Personally, I regard a shield as armour, irrespective of the specific mechanics of that shield's protection.

Fundamentally, a specially-designed shield made for use by Space Marines is a piece of wargear, a sacred tool of the Adeptus Astartes. Riveting some sheet metal to the top just because you think it'll make it stronger is more than a little blasphemous.

Speaking as a GM, cover is terrain, something separate from the character and his trappings that provides a degree of protection from enemy attack. The Improve Cover ability is there to allow the Techmarine to fortify and reinforce static defences - barricades, buildings and the like - through his knowledge of ballistics and weapon dynamics and how best to counter those things. It's less "bolt this bit of corrugated iron to that car door" and more "this wall needs to be reinforced in these places, and provides the most effective defence to individuals in these locations". Same with the Siegecraft ability that Imperial Fists have.

kriss_667 said:

Yup you convinced me. In fact now that I think about it, I gave an example in a different section about how if you were in a desert you could still make cover by using a flamer on the sand to create glass (thick unpolished glass) and then reinforce it with your armor repair kit. SO I suppose you could use the same theory to improve whatever vegetation you were planning on using as cover. the problem would be to find enough material in a short time span that would make enough cover to hide your whole body behind. The settings we play in, generally have more scrap iron than vegetation, as we tend to go in and solve problems after the standard troops have failed. But I concede the argument.

You're shitting me right? Our current firearms will shred any cardboard or large leaves attempted to be used as 'cover' in the sense of it will protect you from ranged ammunitions, hell even a bloody wrist rocket wil punch through those, not to mention my bloody fist! Even if you magically mount metal plating or something similar to the cardboard/leaf its still going to be flimsy as hell, therefore ill advisable for defensive purposes, and will probably buckle under its own weight. Want to Improve Cover via Tech Marine ability+ Evaluate? Use it on the shield he posted, give it an armor rating of 40 or 45 (storm shield is 55, combat shield is 25, rosarius is 50 i think, Iron Halo is 50), make it 1 handed like the Combat shield, and allow exceptional or master crafted pieces to have a force field of 20 added by said tech marine at the cost of 20 req. Said Boarding shield IS cover, and therefore benefits from Techmarines Improve Cover Ability AND Evaluation, to balance it out I would say add a minus to movement while using it in as a defensive measure, AND the Marine must enter a Defensive stance or enemies gain a +X0 chance to do damage successfully. Also allow additional pluses when using the combat actions Defensive Stance, or Tactical Advance(since hes already in cover for this one.) As a last note if they have the talent Stalwart Defense I would also put a bonus or 2 there, if you or your GM are generous.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Right but we are not talking about some sacred artifact. we are talking about Naval shields that have a specific 2ndary use to weld onto the hull in case of a hull breech. And the rules for that shield say that they offer cover OR can be used to parry.

Honestly if you were expecting to go into combat, and in the past have faced the same threat and almost died because of the damge you took, why would you not carry in stronger defense? like a shield? The shields that already exist specifically for Spacemarines are far more powerful...but also very rare. Where as naval shields are common on ships.

But by your logic, given ten minutes and some wriggly tin that 'common' shield becomes better than the 'rare' and special Astartes shield.

The idea of reinforcing cover involves several extra feet of sandbags/logs/scrap metal: Not very portable upgrades. The idea of bolting sandbags to a shield and claiming that the class ability and Evaluate makes the shield better merely because it states that it 'provides cover' is not something that I'd personally ever let fly. Mainly because it goes against the obvious intention of the rule, and completely relies on the specific wording on a piece of equipment that's written for a different game.

Siranui said:

Where do you get sand bags from? That is your low tech idea not mine. We are all given armor repair glue, I would say that is a good start to reinforcing anything. Also Storm shields have force fields that simply negate hits a certain percentage of the time, and cover your whole body, cover does not, and cover is diminished with each shot it takes (that does more than its AP value) I dont think you have really considered your arguments.

A tube of glue isn't going to add several AP to anything now, is it?

I think the fact that you're relying entirely on manipulating the specific wording from a piece of equipment from *another game* to be a pretty well considered argument.

RAI>RAW to my mind. I don't see many minis with Tech-marines cowering behind jerry-built ballistic shields, either...

Siranui said:

Hmmm Lets see glue that can take broken 9AP power armor to fixed power armor? Yeah I think its going to add AP. If its anything like the apoxy I have used it would make a leaf strong as steel in 4 min. And that is with todays tech.

And Roghe trader deathwatch dark heresy all work in the same system and are designed to work together. The naval shield is from Dark Heresy. There are even rules to determine what the requisition is.

You guys keep coming up with biased negative coments because you are afraid a player might benefit to much from a shield. But the fact is, it is possible, and a genius idea. And since I am playing a genius character I think its pretty fitting. Besides if a GM wants me not to have it he can disarm me, destroy the shield, have me attacked from all sides, or a million other possible things to render the shield situational at best.

I will admit that creative players need a creative GM, but for us the ame is a way to be creative and have fun trying to survive in a world where survival is not very likely even for the best of the best.

Ummm... except it doesn't say that anywhere. IMHO, it's to fix gaping holes in the armour in order to reseal the environment, in the event of a hole being shot in it in vacuum. I don't think that Marines would consider a cracked breastplate 'fixed' after pouring some glue in the hole, either.

The three games are not really designed to work together, as many have wailed throughout the history of this forum. Specifically: The rule that you are manipulating (that the shield provides cover) was not written with the Tech Marine's class ability in mind.

Why -instead of just applying a layer of magical glue to a navy shield does your character not use a thicker shield?

As for bias 'It's my class ability and I should be able to use it' is pretty much as biased as it gets. You've not even explored the idea of *not* doing it, because you are interpreting the rules in the way that most benifits you, and won't consider other options.

I'm not afraid that a player may 'gain' too much from a shield. It's hardly an iron halo. I'm negative because it's manipulating the rules to do something that I consider not to be in keeping with the game and not to make any sense.

If survival in a specific scenario is 'not very likely' and you're playing a tech-marine, you need to speak to your GM. How many FP get burned per scenario? How many PCs have died so far in your game?

And if survival is your ambition, it is ultimately 100% pointless. Your chances of 'surviving' being a Marine are exactly zero. Embrace the fact that you are going to die, and make it a worthwhile death. Nobody is going to remember the marine who merely survived everything: They will only remember the character who was utterly fearless and kicked ass in heroic and reckless ways. The best any marine can hope for is to die well.

Stannis Ravensight said:

As Technomarkus noticed, and even wrote about it, I was being kinda sarcastic (and enjoying my negativness). Of course improved and evaluated cardboard/leaf are out of question.

PS. It wasn't on purpose, but it seems that You Have Been Trolled. Sorry for confusion...

Repair cement is not for fixing power armors lost AP (cause it is not losing it due dmg), but for regaining enviormental tightness.

kriss_667 said:

HA! didn't read that one, seems I indeed have been trolled, by myself no less.

The thing that people have a problem with is the idea of using the abilities to improve cover on something mobile. By the time you use your repair cement to stick enough layers of crap on to something you can carry it would be too bulky to move easily. note I said bulky, not heavy, like the reason space marines can't carry two heavy weapons. and the servo arm can 'lift' one side of a rhino to repair it. not lift one completely off the ground and carry it around town.