if you use the bulkhead sheers with your servo arm what penetration do you use? 6 from the sheers? 10 from the servo arm? or 16 from both? You add the strength bonus from the servo arm so you are already doing 4d10+19.

My call would be 10 pen as with most things in this game you take the higher of the 2 scores......but a difference of 4 is not something I would complain about.

Same goes for the drill. Also why have something (like the drill) be power and unwieldy? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? if you can't parry with it, then it can't use it's destroy weapons ability right?

In the end, I can have 3 attacks at 4d10+19 6-10 pen rending.....which is pretty crazy melee from a tank-bot.

technomarkus said:

Simple, while they can't parry themselves, Power Field prevents them being destroyed by other power weapons.

Alternatively, you may wish to adopt the Black Crusade version of the Power Field rule, which has a chance of destroying a weapon that it parries or is parried by rather than only weapons that it parries.

If you are going to use a weapon attached to an arm, whether your own or the mechanical one on your back, the penetration of the weapon is the the penetration of the weapon. You don't get to use servo-arm pen with another weapon just because you're carrying it in your servo arm. Besides, if you mount it on your servo harness, then you have bulkhead shears attached to the harness, not to the arms on the end of the harness. Either way the bulkhead sheers act exactly as the stats in the book.

The above poster is correct about parrying. It also provides bonuses to hitting hordes. Though I can't see attacking with what amounts to the "Jaws of Life" to be very effective against an opponent with any kind of sense or mobility.

Yup that is where I was leaning too. I guess I wasn't 100% clear on what the penetration is from exactly. Is the penetration on the arm from the strength and force of the arm? if so it would stack. But we already add the strength bonus to the attack so that does not really make sense.

I agree with you, as does my GM. Besides its not like 4 pen is going to make a huge difference when you are doing 4d10 +19 points of damage with the tearing quality.....

I think the SB bonus shouldn'b be applied to drill/auger, especially when mounted on harness. And mind that both weapons got changed in errata (the errata is not compulsory, but many players/GM's find it a way more balanced)

I am pretty sure SB always aplies to melee weapons. for example if the drill was a cybernetic implant on a normal arm (which is an option) you would get your SB to damage.

As for the new damage in the errata, we dont use it because its not as random.

technomarkus said:

Maybe in this case.

But mind that, the servo arm posseses it's own strength characteristic, which's bonus is added to dmg dealt by servo arm attack (it is already included in its profile of " 2d10+14 pen 10 "). So should PC's own SB be added to this? I think no, cause it would be adding the same thing twice. So in my opinion the SB should not be added to dmg dealt by weapons mounted on servo harness (the caracter isin't even swinging the whole thing on his own, its the mashine itself). But it is only my point of viev.

Right but if the servo arm is swinging the drill or sheers then why wouldn't you add the servo arm strength to it?

Your argument seems to be that you should not be adding the strength bonus because it will do to much damage. That kind of thing does not fly in our group. The amount of damage is irrelevant, its the concept that matters. and conceptually if you would add strength bonus if it was in your hands, then you would also add it if the servo arm uses it. "to much damage" is not a good reason to prevent it.

Edit: I just wanted to add, that from our perspective, it is the job of the player to make the best character he can following his own character concept within the provided rules to be as powerful as he can be, provided he is acting within the theme of his character. It is the GMs job to work with the characters he has and to make sure that everything is challenging and no timpossible, or if it is impossible to give the characters an option to leave (though we almost never take it). Outside the box thinking that allows for ridiculous damage is rewarded not frowned upon.

In the real world,it makes no sense for Strength Bonuses to be added to the Augur or Shears. Bulkhead Shears are basically just a giant pair of powered scissors. Think "Jaws of Life",in today's terms. There are motors inside the Shears that close the blades,requiring no effort by the wielder to close them at all. The Shears will close at the same rate to the same effect whether they are held in someone's hands or mounted in a fixed position with the target simply standing in between the blades when they shut. The Augur is,as defined in RoB,an impact drill. A drill works the same no matter who is holding it. In fact,the clutch in an impact drill will start to slip and stop the bit from turning if you try to use too much force with it. There's a reason why you don't take a cordless drill and try to punch with it at a wall to drill faster.

In game terms,by RaW,you get the Strength Bonus from the Servo Harness added to the weapon's damage. I've seen several GM's rule otherwise,however,as both the Augur and Shears are ridiculously undercosted from a Requisition standpoint,especially considering there is no Renown requirement for them. This is done as an attempt to somewhat balance them out.

As far as thinking "outside the box,"I really don't see a whole lot of thought going into Techmarines mounting the Augur and Shears beyond looking through the Melee Weapon tables and finding the one that does the most damage. Themetically speaking,they are designed primarily for breaking through ship bulkheads and tearing down fortifications,so unless the mission is a boarding action or a large scale siege of some kind,it makes little sense for players to take them.

technomarkus said:

The book says you are mounting it on servo harness not servo arm.

technomarkus said:

If it is your style of play then I've gon nothing much more to say about it.

But I find it not right that eg. non combat class character (Techmarine is not designed strictly for combat) is going to put hevier blows than something like... a Bloodthirster(?).

If a bloodthirster is played properly, it would still be a challenge.

All classes are combat classes in Deathwatch. we are all Space marines first.

I concede that it does say that you can attach it to a servo harness, however, it also says you can add it as cybernetics. Where I to add it to my hand I would in fact be doing MORE damage than with the servo arm as my strength bonus is 6 X 2 +2 (14) before any upgrades have been taken which for a techmarine start at 200. So the potential for damage is greater as a cybernetic implant. I chose not to do it that way because my character has a roll-playing story as to why he wanted to keep his arms flesh, while the rest of him is machine (more or less) As a rule that character does not even enter melee as he uses the sound strike missile launcher as his main weapon. (4d10+6 blast 1 for krak missiles.)

Lastly there is nothing that says servo arms cannot use melee weapons, throw grenades, or otherwise be used as normal arms. They are there to help manipulate and fix things, in fact you get a negative to use your normal hands when using the tech use skill with your armored hands and not with the servo arms.

You have to look at the whole picture and remember that space marines are all genius level IQ and genetically superior to everyone else. They are the best of the best. And would use everything available to aid them in destroying xeno scum.

Even with all our strength and outside the box thinking 1 Tyranid tyrant took us all out.

You say much bout "out of box thinking" but as I can see you ignored (or pretend you didn't see it) the perfect example of such thinking presented to you by Cujo999. This user explained why he/she thinks the SB should not be added to these weapons using fine logical explanations from the real world. This is the real "outbox". But You as i see seem to strictly follow the rules, and say things like "the rules say that, the rules do not forbid the other thing". Just like here:

technomarkus said:

Maaaaan! Have you ever seen any arts of techmarines with servo arm? I guess yes, because you are player and you red the book. So, don't you think that this plier like device would not be able to manage using stuff normaly requiring human/astartes hands to manipulate? It does not have fingers, or anything like this. Throwing granades is totally fine i think (if you unlock it with your hand first), but using anything that requires hand to use is illogical. I just do not see it switching any swithes, pushing any buttons or pulling any triggers. It is designed for lifting rhinos or something as tough as this. It is not a manipulator which can perform actions like soldering wires or driving small nuts. There aren't any penalties to tech skills for servo arm cause noone normaly would get the idea to repair a broken bolter with servo arm (i guess even people who made the system, so they didn't notice the problem here). Of course the rules do not forbid it, but your so called "out of box thinking" should guide you to the point when you find that it is just not right, and abandon the idea on your own. There are special mechadendrites for precise manipulation (i think i saw some in rogue trader core rulebook).

All classes are not "combat classes" in Deathwatch. From the Techmarine write-up on pg.88 of the main rulebook,second column,first paragraph...

"On the battlefield,a Techmarine's primary role is to effect repairs of damaged equipment,so that it may return to the fight."

Techmarines are mechanics who can also fight,not warriors who fix things when they aren't busy killing stuff.

Also,you are misreading the rules for a Servo-Arm if you think you can wield Melee Weapons,Throw Grenades,etc,etc,with them. While nowhere does it specifically state that you CAN'T do those things,nowhere does it say that you CAN. The rules in DW are written in a permissive format,meaning if the rules don't say that you can,then you can't,by rule. The only things you can do with a Servo Arm are...

1.Lift Heavy Objects[Free Action]

2.Anchor to a point[Free Action]

3.Attack with it[Reaction/Standard Attack Action]

You can't use the arm to fix equipment to negate your -20 penalty from power armor,either. It's a giant pincer claw,so there's no way it's repairing wiring running off a blown circuit board,for example. The Servo Arm is there to lift things up so you can get at them more easily. You still have to use your hands to fix them,however.

Do you know what outside the box thinking means? It means using creativity in finding unusual ways to use things. that means going outside the boundaries of logic.

While it is true in Deathwatch the art of servo arms appears to be giant pincer arms, I have also seen other versions that give them more mobility. You are complaining about the realism of very small elements in a game with aliens and robots.......chill out.

Edit: I would add that while you are thinking about the servo arms with todays tech, I am sure 40 000 years from now the tech will be able to do things you would not expect. Hell I could use my armatron to turn pages in a book and play pick up sticks....

Cujo999 said:

So a standard attack like say, throwing a grenade or using a chainsword?

No... a standard attack like smacking someone in the face with the servo-arm. If you want to attach a chainsword to your servo-arm, Omnissiah knows why, it would require the machinator array talent which states it allows you to attach a single pistol or closecombat weapon to any servo-arm/harness you have.

Use of the weapon still requires the techmarine have the proper talent. Prior to this talent or a servo harness the only attack you have is a melee swing with the arm itself.

NGL said:

Mm no. there is no reason why the servo arm cannot pick up a weapon and hit you with it. Yes the servo harness lets you add additional weapons and tools. but to begin with there is no reason why you cant just hit someone with a club/sword/melee weapon using the servo arm.

Again. you guys are trying to use real world logic in a world with robots and demons. If a demon can appear out of thin air and attack me then I sure as hell can use a robotic arm to wield a sword to hit it .

technomarkus said:

There is a reason why everyone here besides You, brother technomarkus, thinks that it is impossible for servo-arm to wield chainsword or shoot a plasma pistol. It is the way the servo arms grabbing end is constructed. This is made of two big angular metal bars wchich close with enormous force so they work basicly like vise. So there is no way for it to pull te trigger in chainsword (or anything is required to make teeth spin).

And when mounting other devices on servo harness, like plasma cutter (wchich can be used as plasma pistol witch 10m range) or a burner you are not taking several servo arms and just alter their tops. They are smaller devices designed especially for their tasks.

NGL said:

You guys are arguing in circles and not proving anything, I am out.

Why come here asking for clarification of anything when your mind is already made up, and you are totally intractable? Did you expect a wave of support for something that's pretty darned illogical?

I don't think you know what 'thinking outside the box' means. By all means convince your GM that RAW and tables rule over any other logic, but please don't pat yourself on the back for being original and unconventional.

Thinking outside of the box means thinking outside the obvious solution to the problem; finding solutions that aren't even suggested by mere 'rules', yet which are still transparently logical.

That is not what you are doing.

A lawyer who gets a client off by a technicality of the laws (ie the rules) isn't thinking outside the box. A laywer who gets his client off by organising a prison break is.

A tech marine player who kills a foe by finding that power tools do a lot of damage and stacking it with Strength 'because the rules say so' is not thinking outside the box. A tech marine player who kills a foe by using said power tools to demolish a support that's holding up the load-bearing member under which the foe is standing, is.

Looking at a table, finding the biggest numbers, and adding them together isn't uncoventional thinking: It's just ..... what's it called these days... oh yeah 'optimisation' (We used to call it min-maxxing...or powergaming...or munchkinism when it just started defying all logic). Don't fool yourself that you are breaking new boundaries (a quick search of the forum history will show you otherwise: Everyone else has noticed the exact same stacking issue as you have. Hell, someone pointed it out at my own table, and we all got a good laugh at the thought that anyone would ever seriously try to convince a GM that you got a STR bonus when using an electric drill).

technomarkus said:

The servo arm that you have in Deathwatch has the pincer claw. From pg.177,first column,second paragraph...

"Techmarine servo-arms are powerful manipulators tipped with crushing pincers"

It doesn't matter what other versions you've seen. By DW rules,you have a pincer claw,which severely limits the articulation needed for tasks you're talking about like chucking grenades and fixing circuit boards. Maybe the Tau have robotics advanced enough to do that stufff,but not the Imperium.

As far as realism and what not,the big issue here is that you seem to want to disregard common sense and stick with the RaW when it BENEFITS your character[adding Strength bonsuses to the Augur,for example],but want to disregard the RaW and use your own imagination when the RaW goes against you. You can't have it both ways. The more Munchkined out a character is using the rules,the less I tend to allow them to get away with outside the rules for the sake of cinematics.

Currently,Techmarines are an unbalanced class in DW. They fill a niche with their expertise in Tech Use and they are also the best "tanking" class due to their ease of acquiring bionics. When you throw in massive CC DPS using Auger/Shears in conjuction with Servo-Arms/Harnasses and Talents that allow you to make even more attacks with them,the class becomes overpowered in comparison to the other character classes that comprise the group. It's not much fun to play an Assault Marine when the Techmarine does more damage than you,gets as many attacks as you do,soaks damage better than you can,AND can repair/craft things. That is why many GM's use house rules to rebalance the class when faced with players who try to exploit the proverbial "loopholes" that exist within the RaW.

Wow! The OP went from posting a semi-legitimate rules question to completely ignoring the rules altogether and becoming a troll. Bravo...

One question though. How is providing the talent required to do what you want to be able to do not helpful?

If a servo-arm could do the things you imply (act exactly like additional limbs) they would bestow the multiple arms trait. They don't. End of story.

One would be better off petitioning one's GM on acquiring a set of signature wargear mechandendrites that did provide the tech-marine with the multiple arms trait. Such 'arms' would essentially function as exceptional bionic arms with bonuses to fine manipulation since they lack the ability to do things like lift a tank.

The character would then need to purchase the mechadendrite use utility talent in order to make proper use of them.

From my reading of the rule books without the addition of outside sources only the mechandendrite use servo-arm talent is ever needed since the Techmarine only has access to servo-arms and a servo-harness (which requires use servo-arm). He has no access to weapon or utility mechandendrites that his servo harness training and the machinator array talent (servo-arm augmentation) wouldn't cover.

The other two talents (weapon/utility) cover non DW mechandendrites I believe.

It should also be noted that you posted in the rules forum not the house rules forum if you didn't want answers backed by fact (rules and extrapolation from item descriptions) you should have posted elsewhere.

As previously stated the sheers are dangerous because of the hydraulics involved you aren't swinging them around like a sword. If you were they would do damage akin to one. No strength bonus... that makes sense to 99% of the population who look at the stats and read the item description.

A strength bonus to damage makes absolutely no sense what so ever. The 1% are munchkins who think they can exploit an oversight or the developers who didn't hire competent proofreaders for their books.

The same can and has been said for the augur/drill from most reasonable people. The drill is either going to chew through a target or its not. Slamming one into something with extreme force is likely either to damage the augur, the person wielding it, or the target in the form of collateral damage.

In this case the drill becomes an improvised weapon dealing 1d10-2+SB since it has a 'power field' i would be OK with calling it non primitive impact damage. However, since spacemarines are unarmed masters the character would do more damage with its own fist.

I believe the above comments to be a fair representation of the items within the rules, but ultimately regardless of what any of us say its up to the respective GMs.

I think there is some difference between the breaching auger and the bulkhead shears as far as how they are described. I completely agree that the main damage of the shears is in the hydraulic wedges being pushed apart. no room for SB there. except for the fact that if you are stronger you can shove the end in even further before it does it's hydraulic spreading thing. I think the base damage should be much lower but greatly increase any sort of critical damage if you hit a part big enough to lodge it in and do it's work. (the body only on most targets, even the head isn't a big enough target on most enemies)

the auger on the other hand is being shoved into the enemy with the not inconsiderable weight of a space marine behind it. and it's got a power field going for it as well. Yes, in real life a drill is something that takes some time and effort to use on a stationary target and you'd never use one on something moving. but the same can be said for chainsaws and they are a staple weapon in heir many forms. I would probably say the breaching auger on it's harness mount would not be getting the strength bonus, or more likely the bonus supplied by the harness unit. something like 2d10+1 plus 10 for the mounting unit. (yes I always use the new weapon stats) if it were on a servo harness or a limb I'd give the strength of the limb, so +14 for the servo arm or whatever the marine has in the case of the limb.

As written of course you do add SB to both of them and that isn't reasonable to get something better than a chain fist for half the req and no renown requirement.

There's nothing that says a servo arm can't attempt to text on a cell phone, yet I doubt it could push a button without crushing the phone. There's nothing that says the servo arm can't weild a gun, except that it can't pull a trigger. There's nothing that says a servo arm can't do a Cat's Cradle, but with two fingers its not be very good.

Just because the writers didn't think of every possible scenario doesn't mean its open season for players to abuse the rules. Its not "thinking outside the box" its being a rules lawyer which are the most unfun players to hang with. You honestly don't see ANY issue with having that much power at character generation?

So here's what I'm going to propose, show me where in the rules it states that a servo arm can hold and use weapons in the first place, because if its not stated that you can hold a weapon then I guess you just can't. It simply was not the intention to allow players to hold a weapon in what is basically a crane mounted on your back, its nice enough that it has the precision to make an attack at all (which note it SPECIFICALLY says what kind of attacks it can make).

Its almost like you've never seen a Techmarine before.

Nobody is suggesting that the servo arm is wielding the weapon (at least I'm not and haven't seen anything else to the contrary) but there are a number of references to weapons being mounted on servo arm/servo harness. Machinator Array (Talent) lets you mount a single pistol or close combat weapon on any servo arm or servo harness he posesses. The Servo Harness entry mention harnesses with a variety of appendages including weapons. the 'tools' in the OP specificaly state they can be mounted on a servo harness. so no crushing needed.