I've just got my hands on the Hell Boys, and an issue just occured to me, something that's never really been an issue before. The thing is that the Hell Boys have two Flamethrowers on different weapon lines. Whenever I used BBQ, I always made sure to use the flamethrower before the shotguns, so that the target would still have as many figures as possible, which results in more dice rolled for the flame weapon. But with two flamethrowers, am I forced to roll the first one, remove casualties, and THEN roll the second, possibly with fewer dice because the target is already diminuished? Or are all attacks rolled simultaneously?

Another issue came up when I was playing with a Johnny One-Eye proxy, and his Badass ability. When exactly does his "replenish ammo" action kicks in? More to the point, what happens when he dies or dettaches from a squad? Does he provides the squad with full ammo at the very moment he leaves?

Loophole Master said:

All weapon lines are supposed to hit simultaneously, so you would roll for the full number of units for both flamethrower attacks.

I had the same question about Johnny One-Eye, but hadn't asked it since I don't have the unit. My assumption is that the squad does not use up any limited ammo until he leaves the squad, so they would have their full amount of limited ammo when he leaves.

felkor said:

My doubt comes from the fact that I remember the rules saying that the figures should be removed from the board immediately after the hit is confirmed. So after you finished rolling for the 1st flamethrower it's very possible that the squad has already dwindled, which would make it a little strange for you to then roll another flamethrower at full strength.

But re-reading the rules in the Revised rulebook, it seems they make a great deal about all attacks being simultaneous, and if you follow the combat steps they have, rolling dice is step 4, while suffering damage is step 6, so you would have already rolled all of your attacks before the target started removing figures.

felkor said:

That's my assumption, the ability is always in effect until Johnny is no longer there. So if, say, Johnny and the Gunners attack someone with all their weapons (including all 5 UGLs and knives), but in the C retaliation Johnny ends up getting killed, the Gunners would still have all of their 5 UGLs, which would then need to be tallied off on subsequent attacks.

Loophole Master said:

Loop, if I didnt know better I would think I played you today. We had the same issue on how you roll for the flamethrowers. First we were rolling all the dice for both flamethrowers, then we thought we had to seperate them. Now I think we should not seperate them and we should have continued to roll them together.

IMO, Loop has it correct - you figure out who you're shooting at with each line, roll dice for those attacks, roll save (if applicable) THEN remove casualties.

(We had this discussion as well on Friday talking about Hellboys and the Chef - 24 no save dice on a squad of 5 and a hero... then they shoot shotguns to add <more> injury to insult.)

"Badass" states that limited use weapons are considered unlimited when a hero with "Badass" is in the squad. If the weapons are considered unlimited, then the number of "charges" never goes down... until the hero with "Badass" is no longer with the squad with the limited ammo weapons.

I'd also like to know how people are dealing with jumping infantry. According to the rules they cannot jump walls or tanks, but they can jump infantry and buildings. I just can't accept that a jet-pack trooper can't jump over a tank, but he can jump over the building inside which the tank is. And don't tell me it's because the tank would shoot at it mid-jump, cause infantry would do the same thing.

So how are you dealing with it? Are you abiding by the rules, or allowing jump troopers to leap over tanks? (or perhaps disallowing them to even jump over buildings)

Ignoring it, shooting as units jump is reflected by the Reation Fire oppotunity, so that argument doesn't wash at all. No reason why squads can't jump over vehicles. Saying that, nobody has bothered trying it in any game anyway, you normally shoot instead.

I enforce the no jumping over tanks rule. I agree it doesn't make sense, but in missions where one opponent must reach a certain square, there needs to be *some* way to block the progress, otherwise it's far too easy for a unit with Move 2 and Jump to reach it. I assume that is the reason why the rule exists.

If I were to house-rule it, I would change it so jump units couldn't jump over buildings. Considering they can fly through the buildings, jumping over any infantry inside them, 90% of the time it isn't a particularly helpful skill anyway.

My only way of dealing with the logic of it is that infantry units with jump can essentially climb the walls, grappling their way up the side and over the roof, whereas vehicles with jump would not have this ability, and grappling over a vehicle in the midst of battle (enemy or ally) would be too dangerous. This ends up making enough sense to me to make the rule work in my mind and not have my head explode trying to reason how it could all work.

The jumping guy's with the dude with Heroic Attack break half the scenarios anyway :/ And whats with not being able to jump over a wall but can a 3 story building :?

do you guys roll for ranged combat attacks first then resolve those hits, AND THEN do close combat and resolve or do you do it all at the sametime?

also, how do you pin hits on your figures? say you have 5 guys that got hit 9 times, you have a chance to save for cover; do you assign 2 hits to 4 guys and then 1 hit to the remaining figure and roll? or do you do things different?

just curious

ReaverRandall said:

You resolve all ranged attacks first, the defender then rolls cover saves (if applicable) for all valid wounds that can be "saved" by cover (then damage resilience), then the damage that wasn't saved is immediately applied by the defender as they see fit. (See "sniper" for an exception to this rule.) After all ranged attacks are resolved, then CC attacks are resolved by both the attacker and defender simultaneously and then those wounds are applied as each player sees fit (again, DR is checked before wounds are applied.).

Major Mishap said:

For the Flamethrowers Loop the rule is on page 11 where it says performing attacks. Like 3 is Declaring Targets this means all weapons are firing at the same time and will damage at the same time.

1 – Check Range
2 – Check Line of Sight
3 – Declare Targets
4 – Roll Dice
5 – Check Cover Saves
6 – Suffer Damage

6 would also be the point that you loose models per squad not per weapon. Only time it is per weapon is when you fire a weapon and use a combat weapon.

As for Jump Infantry it's because they lob themselves into the air its not a constant force pushing them. Think of the rocketeer and how long he could last in the air b4 having to refuel, now at 300lbs to that due to the armor. Their rocket pack would go out really quick.

arkangl said:

How does that explain them not being able to jump tanks?

you roll flamethrowers seperate because unless your units have damage resilent there is no save against them. so roll both flame throwers at their targets and resolve, then roll the rest of the ranged attacks and resolve, then do CC if applicable.

I too think squads with jump should be able to jump pretty much anything if they can jump a 3 story building (unless inside a structure or on building tiles and trying to jump a wall). Though that does change the dynamic of the game greatly. Gotta love streamlined rules. ha ha ha.

I noticed some talk about reactive fire while units are jumping. Are there rules for that and I just missed them? If a Hot Dog jumps a tank trap can it be targeted by reactive fire? Same with a squad jumping another squad or building? We usually play that jumping basically removes them from LOS so that they can't be targeted, however the jump only applies when moving over an obstacle and not just moving on unobstructed spaces. Hopefully to keep somebody from moving 4 unobstructed spaces and jumping at the same time to avoid reactive fire.

ReaverRandall said:

The flamethrower dice need to be rolled separately, but then cover will be rolled against the attacks where applicable, Damage Resilient rolled against every wound that remains, and then all the remaining damage resolved at once.

That fits the rule structure as written.

Normally, there is no issue, but special weapons have to be layered into the existing rules. When they are, they need to be inserted with as little change as possible unless there are specific instructions. There are no such instructions for weapons that ignore cover, so they need to be considered while keeping the original rules intact. Simply tracking them separately to allow only the rules that affect them to impact their results is not hard to do.

ktj1138 said:

There has to be some limits to jump troops for them to fit into the game. Even if they add full flight capability, turns encompass a set length of time, so there has to be something that makes sense.

If a unit can move four spaces going full out along the ground, how far should it be able to go straight up? While they allmost certainly have more speed than tactical movement along the ground alows, they're also fighting directly against gravity, which would reduce their vertical velocity capabilities.

They also have to worry about the tactical complexities of flying. A soldier on the ground knows no to remain exposed longer than three seconds at a time, because that gives the enemy time to bear and fire on them. Flying troops have no cover unless they hug the Earth or tall structures, but the three second rule would still apply. I have no problem limiting jump capability, and hope they come out with a definitive limit for building height allowed for jumping in a sngle turn. Being able to jump a seven story building as a single action would make no sense.

Three stories works for me, because they could jump up for all their packs will boost them, and drop back on the far side, giving enemy units little extra time to shoot them. More than that starts looking like something that should take more actions, and give enemy fire at them an advantage because they're so exposed.

If they were moving fast enough whiile jumping to not make pretty targets of themselves, they'd be making road kill of themselves when they landed.

Gimp said:

I too agree that there needs to be limitations on all units. I honestly would like to see the jump limitations more balance in the form of any unit with jump can jump over any unit, cover element, terrain tile rubble, and structure tiles reflecting 1 store structures; except vehicles still cannot jump over them) from Sellowe. Then nothing can jump over a terrain tile wall or a building over 3 stories tall (though you can still jump off a building X stories tall). I think some type of terrain to reflect a rolling hill or something that can block line of sight so that Allied troops can still have a chance to get up on these unlimited range Walkers on more open maps would be nice as well.

What about reactive fire while jumping? As long as you would normally have line of sight you can? Like jumping over a tank trap in open terrain (allowing LOS) vs. jumping over the middle of a building 3 tiles long (blocks LOS)?

I'd like to see jumping units able to go over anything they can move over if they were moving along the ground. If they go up three, and over one, they'd be using all of their movement. That would cap going over a narrow wall at three levels high, and over a one space wide building at two levels high.

I wouldn't have major issues with a Move 2 Jump unit being able to use both actions to jump a level three building one space wide and land on the other side. It could give them an extra space of movement, as they were going up three, and over two to not land on a roof, but it would make some sense, as they are probably not going straight up due to the power required. If they were jumping a two space wide building, they could only go over a two level building for the same reason.

Taking the jump capable units as able to fully fly as the Axis rockettruppen are in the comic adds some issues, but the same issues will apply to all flying units. Tracking height for flying units will either have to be very simply, or involve elevation to some level. Elevation as 'squares' of height as they have for buildings would be fairly simple, working as it does for building elevation levels. Troops would have to avoid flying through buildings, and an elevation marker of some sort would have to track their height. At some point, vertical distance would have to add to the range for the flying models as well as for the ground units, as machine gun straffing runs were not possible from bomber altitudes. Perhaps every partial four elevation levels added one to the range for ground troops, and one less for the flying model. That would mean a model flying at or on the fifth floor would add one to its firing range to the ground, while troops on the ground would add two firing back.

With that, jump troops could be allowed to fly over buildings, but they'd have to do so without much chance for cover, and be able to attack while flying without limiting return fire too much.

Reading your posts, something occurred to me: Ok, jump troopers cannot land on the roof of a building because it's too fragile, steep, whatever. But once they climb their way up there, can't they jump down directly from it?

Loophole Master said:

The only limitation currently in force is no jumping into upper floors, and no landing on a roof.

Leaving a building or roof is left simple.