I have to go with Borithan and Siranui here- with the base boltgun this seems pretty reasonable but when you throw in the Storm or Heavy in the mix, then stack on specialty ammo, then stack on talents, the multiplication takes off like a rocket.

Boltgun is S/3, but Storm is S/4/ Storm (so really 2/8). With the way these stack you can get into a place where a storm bolter actually does more to a horde than the heavy bolter with this addition (though I'm not up on the math of the likelhood, given that the Storm is in fact only semi-auto).

Yes, you have to be higher level to get things like SoI and to req Metal Storm or Hellfire rounds, but this goes back to my original point- I don't really like the idea that my players, with little prep or specialization in load out, can kill twice as many hordlings as they already can.

But with that all said, maybe they ARE taking all this into account and re-working the damage tables a third time. I wonder how many other surpsies are in there, hopefully not too many of the BC things I've heard of...then again, you can't please everyone all the time. I am one of the few people that actually liked the nerfed auto-pistols in hand to hand thing.

Whizzer said:

They are also far better than heavy flamers, too. Which really sucks, as flamers are of limited range and are supposed to be good against hordes. When there are a thousand rippers heading towards you, I know what weapon I'd think should be better.

It also makes Hellfire from a heavy bolter even worse against hordes, due to the single shot nature. You'd be better off with standard ammunition.

Even with 'new' RoF, it's still crazy: SB with Bolter drill, SoI and metal storm = 64 horde damage, isn't it? Or 32 with standard bolts. That's crazy compared to ... well... every other non-bolt weapon in the game!

Let's calculated with the 3 step system I mentioned above:

1. SB with Bolter Drill = a max of 5 initial hits, adjusted to 10 due to Storm.
2. 10 hits means 10 mag damage, due to explosive damage another 10 mag damage (using rule in planning mentioned above), due to Hellfire rounds another 10 for a total of 30 mag damage.
3. Storm of Iron doubles the damage to 60 mag damage total.

In short you score 12x initial hit count in mag damage (it's useful to calculate the modifier for each PC/NPC).
Under my house rule of Storm not inflicted double hits, only granted a double chance to wound, this would be 30 mag damage then. More reasonable in my eyes.

And now let's turn to Metal Storn rounds:

1. SB with Bolter Drill = a max of 5 initial hits, adjusted to 10 due to Storm, adjusted to 20 due to Metal Storm (notice the difference to Hellfire?).
2. 20 hits means due to explosive damage another 20 mag damage for a total of 40 mag damage.
3. Storm of Iron doubles the damage to 80 mag damage total.

So horde damage is 16xhits.

I am not sure if this difference is a result of deliberate game design and not of lexical imprecision. Anyway it makes Metal Storm more worthwhile then Hellfire against hordes, so I am fine with that.

An advice for FFG: you might want to errata the whole wording when it comes to hits and mag damage. Why don't you designate ammo/talents/etc to simply have a horde damage multiplier? That way the order in which what gets done becomes moot. Storm becomes a x2 mag damage and so on. Multipliers either add up as Unnatural Ability levels or you have a normal associative multiplication. If you something that gets added, you only need to specify whether the 1d5 or whatever gets added before or after multiplication. Much easier.

Alex

Plasmafest said:

Exactly the way I read/interpreted it. Bolts don't appear out of nowhere.

ak-73 said:

Bolts blow up inside the target - not on the carapace of a termagaunt - inside the carapace. Mass reactive has a purpose - to explode within a targets mass and kill it. This does not imply extra effects or hits for a boltgun.

Ak-73

First, if each hit does ZERO mag damage its reasonable to say no damage is done at all (Bolts blow up inside the target - not on the carapace of a termagaunt - inside the carapace. Mass reactive has a purpose - to explode within a targets mass and kill it. This does not imply extra effects or hits for a boltgun) so you have to determine if any damage is done by each hit. If only ONE hit does mag damage proceed...

Also - mag damage is abstract. What might kill a lot in a horde might only wound an individual ogryn. I will take liberties here as the system is set up deliberately to be abstract.

In the Horde rules :

• Weapons that inflict Explosive Damage (X) gain a bonus against Hordes, and count as having inflicted one additional Hit per Attack after all other Hits have been applied.

This can be used RAW to do as you say but my interpretation of the common sense action of the weapon itself simply adds 1 to mag damage. It makes little difference.

1 hit = a chance to damage and cause 1 mag damage baseline which can be doubled by SOI or gain you NOTHING if you fail to damage

or my interpretation

1 hit = +1 mag damage (1 less damage test) (doesn't apply if the other/original hits failed to damage) which can be doubled by SOI.

Concerning hits: many people, including myself, check to see if the attack wounds once per attack. (This becomes pretty much a necessity with 20 hits per attack.) Then it's either 0 mag damage or ((originally scored hits)xmultiplier) mag damage.

Alex

PS I also think many people would agree that horde fighting needs a little speed increase. Using the multipliers and the above mentioned house rule help to do that.

Edited my post on page two ak to make it more understandable - after re-reading I wasn't getting my point across so I reworded it.

And about damage - if your using the minimum damage = dos rule its not required to roll damage for each in most cases as long as your GM tells you the soak value (TB+Armor) of the enemy:

Ogryn Soaks (TB10+4 armor) 14, Boltgun Round does minimum 1d10+9 pen 4 so its reasonable you'll do mag damage to an ogryn horde but you still have to roll a d10 to see if you get a 1 and fail to damage unless your DOS on the attack is >0 in which case the minimum damage = DOS rule saves you a lot of time.

bobh said:

Two words: Organic shrapnel.

Siranui said:

I don't know why but it makes me laugh.

bobh said:

Yeah my issue is simplifying the whole system and getting a speed increase out of it. As it stands you need to follow the 3 step process (ignoring rolling to wound which is a fouth step).

1. Determine # of hits. (Some things inflict additional hits.)
2. Translate hits into mag damage. (Some things make hits turn into more than 1 pt mag damage.)
3. Calculate final damage. (Some things modify mag damage.)

This sequential procedure is unnecessarily complicated. It's far easier to determine initial hits and then have a simple formula (mag damage = x times #hits plus y)to derive total mag damage out of it. And I lobby here to rearrange the system so that exactly that happens. "Okay, your bolter hits 3 times, thus you do 12 pts mag damage to the horde." That is how it should run.

Alex

I understand how an automatic weapon firing explosive rounds into a mass of bodies will kill a lot of them, but up to 10-15 times more than a frag missle? (using the erata stats where they took the blast down to 5, so does it do 6 since it's explosive?)

I'd see the heavy flamer or frag missles the optimal weapons for hordes of lightly/not armored foes depending on range but as is, they just don't cut it.

Nathiel said:

Well, Storm of Iron would also apply to Frags so that cuts the discrepancy by half. And for flamers there is Cleanse and Purify at Rank 1.
And Frags are also Explosive.

Let's calculate it step-by-step:

1. A hit with the frag extends to 5 hits thanks to Blast(5).
2. According to the announced errata change up in this thread this translated into 5 mag damage plus another 5 mag damage due to X damage.
3. 10 mag damage will then be adjusted to 20 points of mag damage due to Storm of Iron.

As calculated above Hellfires will do 12x#initial hits in mag damage and Metal Storm 16x. Here the system breaks down because it doesn't take into account that 4 metal storm rounds that explode will be fairly near to each other and probably less wide-sprad damaging than a single frag.

The previous rule regarding X damage (+1 hit on top of it) was better imho. I also like the new damage with the old ROF (except HB) better.

Alex

sorry with this new 'clarification' it's +1 mag damage per hit. not double base mag damage so a frag with full errata stats is blast 5 for base 5 if it damages +1 for X and I guess +1 for Devastating... so 7 doubled w/ SoI to 14...

I was just double checking and both Cleanse and Purify and Storm of Iron work with your flamer so that does keep the heavy flamer doing pretty decent damage. just not keeping up with the HB and SB at this point.

A. +1 mag damage per hit. An attack with a Blast(5) weapon that hits inflicts 5 hits. I am not doubling mag base damage, I am translating total hits inflicted to mag damage. If you keep to the 3-step pattern, you'll see the difference.
B. Ah, the new frags have Dev(1), I didn't remember. The effect of it is one additional damage point per hit, so it applies to step 2 as well.

So let's do it again:
1. A hit (an attack) with the frag extends to 5 hits thanks to Blast(5).
2. According to the announced errata change up in this thread this translated into 5 mag damage plus another 5 mag damage due to X damage plus yet another 5 damage due to Devastating(1).
3. 15 mag damage will then be adjusted to 30 points of mag damage due to Storm of Iron.
Not bad for a frag missile.

Let's have a look at the frag grenade:
1. 4 hits
2. Translates to 8 damage thanks to X.
3. Finally adjusted to 16 by SoI if present.
We can see that the frag grenade sucks and that SoI is a big deal.

Let's max out the flamer with SoI and C&P:
1. 11 hits on average, adjusted to 14 on average with C&P.
2. Translates to 14 mag damage.
3. Finally adjusted to 28 mag damage on average.
It's okay. Not nearly as good as metal storm but okay.

Not a fan of the new rule. I'll stick to old ROF except HB plus new damages.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yeah, I totally missed that. I'm not liking the "fix," its about as stupid as the way they "fixed" unrelenting devastation for the use of metal storm/blast qualities with Heavy bolters, by basically shafting the frag missile.

I agree, things need to be done to make horde combat interesting, and making hordes die faster isn't the way to do it. The RAW for inflicting actual mag damage as a result of a hit needs to be streamlined/improved. I saw the other thing about a house rule of single damage roll for all or nothing, and I do something similar. That still doesn't really do the system justice though.

Of course, the RAW 1 damage roll per 1 hit to determine total mag damage is a horrible mechanic, and entirely counter to the whole notion that hordes speed up what is otherwise a uselessly large combat. Generally, I always make sure the minimum damage of my players weapons can always damage a horde, and just toss it from there. The good thing is the errata damages have increased the min damage dealt, so its usually not an issue.

As terrifying as a heroic Space marine with a storm bolter and hellfire rounds can be, I just don't see how a single lucky swathe of storm bolter fire can potentially force a mag 70 horde to break. Yes, in six seconds of combat and a single burst of fire, a tide of enemies covering the immediate area turns tail and flees. It just isn't that heroic (obviously, there need to be bigger enemies, but its still seems forced then).

I also only use 1 damage roll for 'all or nothing' damage, as not doing so would slow the game down, for no added fun.

I don't have a problem if hordes just are all-round easier to kill.... The problem starts when certain weapons are suddenly twice as good as they were. It punishes players for not playing the 'right' class and not taking the 'right' weapon. Moreso when the changes occur half-way into a campaign.