I was running a game and almost had to rule on what happened if a vehicle rams a horde. ( I was saved by the horde breaking from the damage inflicted by a particularly efective Smite before the vehicle got there)

I noticed the rules don't realy cover how to handle that so I was wondering what you guys thought.

I'd say the Horde takes anywhere from 1d5 to 2d10 Magnitude damage (depending on speed, the specific vehicle, the units comprising the Horde, and other situational modifiers) then needs to make a Willpower Test to keep from breaking/running accordingly. Horde would probably get bonuses from fortified positions, commanders, etc, and penalties for faster/bigger vehicles, vehicle weapons, etc.

I'd say the horde hears the vehicle a mile away and gets out of the way. But thats just me.

Nevertheless, You'd need to make a piloting test to actually hit them. It would be the similar to ramming another vehicle. Just these would be smaller, more agile, and quicker to get out of the way making it a more difficult roll.

Most anyone hit by a tank going at decent speed wouldn't take damage. They'd just die. But again you wouldn't be hitting everyone in a horde even if you managed to get them. I don't know how much damage, it would be the GM's call. Say the vehicle manages to hit 3 guys, so three guys die.

Then of course the surviving guys would swarm the tank, rip open hatches, put grenades in treads, and wreck holy hell with the vehicle. Its rarely a good idea to drive your vehicles right into the midst of enemy infantry.

Except in Warhammer 40K it frequently is. Tank shocking with Sternguards in Rhinos is excellent as long as you don't have a power fist-equivalent in your way.

How about:
1D5 damage per vehicle size category over average.
+1D5/2D5 for hordes greater than mag 20/30.
Hordes can reduce the amount of damage dice per DoS on a Dodge test.
High vehicle speed gives a negative dodge modifier but requires the driver/pilot to make a control test.
Hordes composed of more massive beings automatically cause a control test/require the driver to go full speed to do damage.

Something like that.

Alex

Unfortunately, Warhammer 40k rules are so limited and abstract it doesn't take into consideration the real consequences for getting vehicles that close.

Tanks and vehicles are vulnerable to infantry at very close range. They really, really don't want to go near them.

Sure in 40k you can suicide rush (something a space marine would probably never do) your meta optimised plasma/melta vet squad (a loadout they'd likely never use in reality either) and kill a unit or something. This capability is a failure of the ruleset in 40K.

Another ruleset has it much more realistic. In Flames of War Infantry assaulting tanks is a very effective way to get rid of them. The problem is, getting close to them. Problem solved if the tank just drives right up to the infantry.

We shouldn't be trying to copy the ruleset and mindset of 40k. An RPG is not nearly as limited or abstract as 40k. And as its based heavily off real life, the meta game rediculousness you see in 40k just shouldn't work.

It's not a simulationist RPG, much less one that tries to adhere to 20th/21st century warfare, except in style.

It's in the spirit of the game to drive your Rhino through a horde of termagants (which have no way of harming your APC btw).

Alex

I'm sure in the year 40,000 infantry ara still capable of climbing up onto a tank and using their little dinky popguns or claws to bust periscopes and/or optics. Or pry open doors, slash tires, shoot engine blocks, or jamm weapons systems. Hell, a tank can't even shoot at infantry in close proximity to it as it can't traverse its guns well or fast enough to hit them. Then what happens after your can't see out of your big fancy tank cause a bunch of lowly grunts shot all your periscopes and cameras off? Either the driver and commander open up hatches and stick their heads out or the tank is dead and useless. If you can't see you can't fight. If they stick their heads out while the other guys are still on top... well the only thing they get is a pistol round or claw in the head. Vehicles do have weaknesses to infantry, and they can be hurt, even by hormagaunts.

If you prefer to stick dogedly to the limited D6 idiot rules for 40k in your Game where you Play the Role of a character existing in a universe based upon the fundamentals of our reality (If you know what a 6 dimension reality is like, please tell me although I doubt I'd be capable of understanding.), well thats fine go right ahead. But, as they say, truth is stranger than fiction. You'll have much more fun if you actually make your players think, and give them consequences to bad decisions. At least they'll learn something, perhaps. All I've tried to do is explain how a situation like this woul really work, and what would really happen if a person tried such a tactic.

herichimo said:

There are different interpretations to DW and 40K. My view is: everything that goes in an action movie, goes in DW. And driving a tank into a large, clustered horde of enemies does go in action movies, at least if the hero does it. Now NPC probably don't get away with it, unless they are Touched By the Fates(x) level NPCs. All simulationist talk beyond that is secondary to me.

herichimo said:

It's not entirely true, that's what machineguns are for. The German Elephant was fail among other things because it lacked machineguns and could easily be eliminated by Soviet infantry. The Elephant successor was fitted with MGs and did much better at close range. If a tank does see you at close range (which is the actual difficulty with a closed hatch), it can suppress you.

The Combat Mission franchise is wonderful source material for anyone who seeks to pick up some modern (=combined arms) warfare.

herichimo said:

You are still talking simulationism. Did you notice that DW has no rules for optics? Unlike with tank shocking, I believe this is so by design because it is not directed at simulationist gamers. If you don't want tank shocking, advise your players against it and play according to your assumed realism.

Doesn't mean that other gamers or the game designers have to share the same vision.

herichimo said:

Uh-huh.

herichimo said:

Tough talk. Let me remind you that you are debating a Warhammer 40K game here. Based on a world designed by Games Workshop. I find other stuff harder to believe than driving a tank right into an enemy horde (such as a Tyranid horde or barricaded infantry). It's just in the epic spirit of the game to do that and to get away with it. I also think it will be difficult to remove optics when a tank is driving with 40 mph right at your body, unless you are Astartes.

herichimo said:

You haven't told me a single thing I didn't know before-hand. Funnily enough, I stand to my previous remarks.

Alex

PS Tanks can have small hatches. If you disable their optics they are by no means rendered useless, you just degrade their battlefield capabilities. Also have a Techmarine or Servitor with spare parts nearby. A reserve Servo Skull can work be used as ad hoc substitute. Conversely to your portrayal here, it is not that easy to take out a tank at close range if you don't have the right equipment. In fact, it is often quite deadly for the infantry involved. Bring along some melta bombs.