Are there any plans to release rules for conventional vehicles and war machines of the WWII era. There are numerous companies that produce models of the applicable scale, it only seems logical since the walkers and such are new to the era, it would be a nice blend. Even online only or print on demand would be a healthy balance to the game.

v/r

Todd

Not that FFG or Dust-Models has let leak. Several solid cases have been built around the idea of them releasing cards or even just "official - not for tournament play" cards or data.

I have a correct scale Tamiya King Tiger just waiting for a card so it can start punching holes in Pounders.

I have a correct scale Tamiya King Tiger just waiting for a card so it can start punching holes in Pounders.

sorry for the double post, the forum is running very slow and more than a little weird.

I don't want to see period correct vehicles etc in the game. I like the Sci-fi aspect.

But on that note I would like tracked vehicles, as well as possibly an Axis motorbike squad. And some Machine Gun teams. And Allied Mortor teams.

Psykostevo said:

So, does that mean you want period style non-walker vehicles, or don't?

Tracked vehicles in 1947, when walkers appeared for the Axis in 1942 and others coming later, would not be that different than what actually came about. You can be seen in the designs of the current walkers.

Look at the comics, and you see actual historical tracked vehicles in combat.

Rules for tanks would be nice but as the focus is primarily on the advancement of walkers etc the availablity (if at all) should be limited. I dont think FFG would make it a priority to include them as such vehicle types would be direct competition to their own product. Not that Tamiya kits are any cheaper than the 3 in 1 FFG sets....

What I would like to see though: Half Tracks and other mechanized infantry type vehicles/transports should be made available. DM could adopt a particular brand ie:Tamiya and produce option kits with upgraded tech options/specific crew/upscaled weapons etc. They could even offer larger conversion sets (resin/photo etch) that replace substantial parts of the original kit to make them more Dust "friendly". DM now have an Allied crew set w/upsized 50 that seems to be aimed in this direction so perhaps its a plan already in motion. For those interested companies such as Black Dog have been producing such items (albeit more "conventional") for the Tamiya 48 Hanomags for a while now.

Modelling wise I'm working on a Mercedes G4 and a couple of Hanomag 250/251's so here's hoping.

I know FFG is not officially going to release rules for them. Unofficially, though, how would you balance them? What would be the advantages of walkers compared to tanks, if the game isn't a full on rough terrain / urban ruins cityfight?

I can't see how walkers would be more durable or able to pack more firepower as tanks of a similar tech level.

I guess you could make tanks vulnerable to getting tracked by numerous ways...

Sami K said:

Make sure that the tanks aren't the same tech level, no auto-loaders or multiple guns and give them reload. Otherwise a tank will beat a walker hands down every time - lower profile, more stable firing platform, faster....

I guess you could just make them points inefficient and use them mostly for scenario purposes. That would work.

Well,

a while ago a little (reliable I think) bird tweeted to me, that conventional vehicles are indeed part of DUST:Warfare.

But don't quote me on that! That was last October (at the Spiel), and much could have changed since then. And he could have lied to me as well... ; )

We'll find out soon enough.

Cheers!

Well that would be a very positive surprise indeed!

I wonder if they'll go ahead and include armour 1 regular infantry so they can cover the whole spectrum of land warfare! I'd like that, to highlight the "elite" guys more - AND include the "wave of guys" option as well!

The ability to field historical troops and vehicles would be really fun... if only to make a contrast to the "new" walking armored stuff.

I'm a historical reenactment buff. One of the reasons I like the Dust theme is all the "what if / alternate history" thing. The setting is about an emerging new type of warfare. Anyone who's been in the army knows that the old stuff gets used 'til it fails. You should still see tanks, half-tracks and jeeps rolling about around the walkers IMHO. The walkers, in the background story, haven't been around for more than a couple of years after all!

I like the mix of history and sci-fi. If I wanted an all sci-fi game I'd stick with 40K or something like BattleTech/Mechwarrior. Even if I have to make the rules up, I'll field my 1/48 WW2 Tamia models with my friends anyways. It just that it would be nice to have something from the devellopers to start me out though.

Still, whatever gives, I just can't wait to get my copy next week...

Hairystef said:

Agree 100%

From FFG's standpoint, the business question comes down to this:

Publishing stats for regular tanks and jeeps, etc will bring in more players to the game, as there will be some players who won't be interested unless there are these things.
However, publishing stats for these kinds of vehicles mean that Dust Warfare players will be spending money on non-FFG items that they would have spent on FFG items had those stats not existed (I certainly know this is true for me.)

The question ends up being which is the bigger number. I have a strong suspicion that they would lose more money than they would make on doing this, and despite the fact that I would love to see these stats too, I can't really see it as a good business decision on FFG's part.

There also would come tournament play, where they of course have the rule of only using official FFGunits, but that would require some re-thinking if there were stats for units that FFG didn't produce.

For Dust Tactics, there is already a blog where you can download unofficial unit cards for reall non-fantasy vehicles. I'm guessing we'll see the same thing for Dust Warfare too, so as long as some thought is put into those stats, it won't be too hard to play friendly games with other kinds of units.

For me, I guess I just see that in Dust Warfare and Dust Tactics, you're playing the missions with best elite squads doing the important missions, and for those kinds of missions, only the best and newest technology is being used.

[please excuse the following comment]

...and then they could do a WWII 28mm game called "Warfare" since Tide of Iron doesn't receive as much love...

felkor said:

I don't see that it would be detrimental for them, on the contrary. If players choose Dust Warfare it certainly is because they like the look and feel of the VK tec. Addind free dowloadable stats will just add to the flexibility of Dust Warfare, hence to the general enjoyment of the fans and probably bringing more in who, like myself, have a more story driven approach to these games.

As for tournament play, you have the solution : only FFG minis accepted! They wouldn't be the first company to do so...

As for 7times7is49's suggestion, just doing the above, i.e. free downlodable stats, they would give the option for players to use the same rules to play historical scenarios. I'm not sure they would see the wisdom/profit in publishing a full fledged game of that style with so many other competitors around... but hey, if they do, I would certainly pick it up.

One also has to consider that releasing more stats isn't "free" for FFG. It would take manpower to do so as it would require a lot of playtesting, etc. to make sur ethe balance was right. And although they could offset this by having a specific "real-world vehicles" supplement book, that book would lose that synergy they have where buying one product means you want (or need) to buy another product. If I bought a supplement like that, I would spend the next few months buying and painting 1:48 Tamiya tank models probably, and as fun as that would be, that would be Dust money that wasn't going into FFG's pockets.

But as I said, doing it would draw in more people, but would cause people who are playing Dust to spend money on non-FFG products. Both are certainly true - the question is which would be greater. It's clear at this point that FFG sees it as being detrimental to go that route, so I doubt we will ever see it happen. If anything, we might down the line see FFG release models of tanks and jeeps that are slightly modified with Vk technology - thus letting people use more regular vehicles while adding a sci-fi touch to keep the theme of the game and keep people buying FFG products. And that would be fine with me too.

felkor said:

Please. The extra manpower is neglible. Armor 1, 1 health per unit member, move 1, M1 AR. There, done. Maybe knife! Done. Lower the value against A1 to 1/1 instead of 2/1 to show a different level of training. There you go, basic allied infantry.

Same goes for tanks, you have a range of weapon sizes already and all you really need to do is publish 3 types of tanks, light, medium, heavy and fill in the gaps.

Finally, the hardest part, other vehicles. Again though, its merely deciding what stats you want to give them. Its an excellent assignment for interns or a training project for those who are recently hired and they can test play it right there at work or with a limited number of fans from the forums.

And the last step is to sell them, either as official cards (so they can make more money) or as a PDF that coswts $5 (so they can make some money).

Extra manpower is definitely not negligable. What's the AP value of those units you mention? It takes playtesting to find an appropriate value.

Also, releasing cards and rules requires photographers, writers, proofreaders, etc.

All that and you're still encouraging people to go out and buy models that are made by other companies.

Certainly would be great for the fans, but not a great business decision.

You'd also need rules for incorporating them into your army, as the current platoon structure doesn't include them, and that is more likely where the balance issues would be. Unless the unit sizes are much larger, it'd be almost pointless to take a unit of soldier 1 troops over something better, given the limitations on number of platoons and sections.

Additionally, allowing people to field all kinds of crazy things destroys the meta for pick-up games, unless you routinely play against such forces.

Ultimately, the game is what it is. If it's not what you're looking for, play something else.

JigBakerSugar said:

Great argument.

Again, its not hard to either A) come up with point values and play test them for free "Hey, Im game designer and here is this unit, the current cost is X APs, you can field them in a platoon structure as follows you can field two squads of these per regular Dust Squad you field, why dont you ten people Ive selected from the list serve test them out, and Ill tell you what, send us pictures of your units you use and we will use those in the PDF when it is all sorted out!"

Poinless to take them over something else, except POINTS value, you may only have a hand ful of points left. Or, since they would be cheaper, perhaps you want more actions?

And they are for people who want such things as normals in their games.

And your argument of "play something else" is a BS cop out too many people use. People like Dust, they want toplay Dust. Nothing wrong with wanting the full game being explored and released, they have an Armor 1 and a Armor 4 infantry in the game, if they never use them (be it for doors and walls so you can blow them up, for NPC civilians who get int eh way, or for normal troops doesnt matter) then there is no point in having the stat listed. "Oh look, we kick ass against Armor 1, too bad it doesn texist in the game".

There is no manpower extra use, and if there is it is still neglible.

felkor said:

All those great Dust Models from Dust Models are also from another company. My Fury of Ivan is not an official Dust Tactics/Dust Warfare Model but it has stats from Dust Models. No point value, sure, but obviously if Dust Models can release a pack of cards for $10 for their own unofficial non tournamnet use models, then Dust Tactics/Warfare from FFG can do the same. Why would other companies models really affect FFG? The core game is still going to be about the VK tech and what not. You just have to make it that the normal stuff lacks in comparison to official models. Lower Armor values, weaker weapons, less skills.

Here you can use this tank its Armor Class 3, has a weaker gun then the ludwig and no skills. It costs barely less points, Have fun. Or you can buy our models and use our units and win games.

And then there is the option of making their own models (and they make other models for other lines) or enter into a marketing agreement with some lesser 1-48 scale miniatures company/modeling company where they cross promote each other (kind of like the Dust Models website and their associates).

Some of this would require more time and effort if FFG actualy feels threatened by other miniatures. But a good deal of people are already using other miniatures or making their own unit cards and if FFG wants to make some money off that a $10 PDF covering conventional weaponry, units and vehicles can let them gain some of the money. Reusing stock art and photos, reusing Dust imagery, balanced, playtested or not. They can always update it later on. And charge you another $10.

But you leave the official contests, competitions and tournaments to OFFICIAL FFG models only.

Peacekeeper_b said: