Lets say I declare that I want to Fire then Move.

Do I have to declare where I am moving to before I roll the dice?

Don't see why you would have to. If you manage to kill your enemy, you might want to then move forward; whereas if you fail to kill him, you might want to retreat into cover. It would make the game poorer of you had to declare where you're moving to beforehand.

The rules say you declare what actions you are taking, but there is no requirement to declare your full move from your second action before resolving your first action.

That allows a unit to move forward, be hit be Reactive Fire, and then retreat to cover, when the player may have originally planned to continue moving forward prior to taking damage from the Reactive Fire. That lets a unit work like one that broke morale and retreated, rather than forcing all units to always advance.

Plus, if you had to declare where you're moving to beforehand, some movements would be impossible. Say you wanted to attack an adjacent enemy and then move into the square previously occupied by it. You couldn't do that if you had to declare first, because you wouldn't know whether or not that square would be vacant when the time came to do your move.

Would the same apply for a unit that has received the stimulant shot from the NCO medic and is now performing 4 actions? Do you think it must declare what actions and what order they'll be taken in before doing anything? WIth 4 actions, a lot can change during that unit's turn, so should it be allowed the flexibility of declaring actions on the fly? (of course, whether an attack will be sustained or not must always be declared before rolling).

Sure you have to say what you are doing, the rules don't say otherwise.

What if he's doing two sustained attacks? Does he have to declare exactly WHO's being attacked beforehand? If the first target dies from the first attack, can't he chose a different target for the second?

Loophole Master said:

I didn't think the game ever required you to declare such details. I think you can always just say, "I'm going to move and then attack" or "I'm going to do a sustained attack" and you don't have to declare anything more until you're actually doing it.

I agree, you only have to declare what weapons will atack what targets once you're about to start rolling your attack.

So I guess you'd only need to say "I'm going to do a sustained attack, move, and then do another attack." And then once you see the result of your first attack you can decide whether to move towards a second target or not.

But I don't know, I still think it's awkward to have to declare so many actions in advance. It makes little difference when it's just two actions and your options are limited to M+M, M+A, A+M or SA. But with four actions, the possibilites are limitless.

To be honest, I never even play with the "declare your actions" rule. Even when I suggest we play with it, everyone just forgets about it. It doesn't seem to be terribly needed unless someone's going to jump in with a reaction anyway, and I still don't have any units with reaction skills, and without that, the reaction rule is pretty close to useless (I've never had anyone in any of my games use it.) Do you find it's a useful/important rule to have (declaring your actions beforehand)?

It really isn't necessary if you're doing just two actions, mainly because you'll only get to do a single attack (whether sustained or normal). But with four actions this issue becomes much more important, since you could perform as many as 4 different attacks. So the question is: Can you attack someone, and after finding out whether it survived or not, you get to decide whether to attack that same target again, or move on to a different target?

Loophole Master said:

You'll still have a maximum of two separate attacks, unless you're considering weapon lines. The Stimulant Kit says normal attacks have to be separated by a different action, so the most powerful you'll get outside Sustained Attacksx2 or Sustained Attack/Action/Normal Attack is Normal Attack/Action/Normal Attack with another action tacked in somewhere.

I play with declared actions, but keep it loose, and allow final determination as each action is resolved. That would allow you to see the results of one attack before making the second. The rules don't stipulate the actions need to be fully defined before resolution begins, only declared by type.

Without that, you can get the situation of a unit forced to move where it makes no sense after taking Reactive Fire. With declared actions, but not defined actions, you could move, take Reactive Fire, and move back to better cover/medical care after seeing the results.

That's not quite right. Rules say "An injected squad can perform two ATTACK actions against the same target as long as the ATTACK actions are not consecutive." That doesn't mean that ATTACK actions must be separated by MOVE actions, only that two normal consecutive attacks against the same target must be turned into one sustained attack. But by the rules you could attack A, then attack B, then move, then attack A again. Or sustained attack A, then attack A again, then attack B. Or, technically, attack A, then B, then A, then B again.

Loophole Master said:

felkor said:

Well, nor is MOVE+MOVE+MOVE+MOVE, we're dealing with a load of exceptions with this stim shot. You're saying that a drugged squad can't move, attack A, attack B then move again? Cause that would be MOVE+ATTACK+ATTACK+MOVE.

The core rules stipulate that Attack + Attack is not allowed, regardless of the number of targets available. The restriction against Attack + Attack is separate from the Sustained Attack rules, with Sustained Attack being a separate attack action choice.

Stimulant Kit allows a unit to Attack a target twice, either as two Sustained Attacks, or as two Attacks separated by another action. It does not remove the restriction against using Attack + Attack.

I agree with Loophole and you could MOVE+ATTACK A+ATTACK B+MOVE. The Field Medic rules say that they can be used in any combination, overiding the normal Core rules.

I agree with Gimp, the rules doesn’t say that Stimulant Kit overrules the core rules which would mean that you are allowed to combine the actions however as long as they comply with all other rules too.

The Stimulant Kit rules as all other rules regarding weapons and abilities are specific rules addition to the core rules that specifies in detail how these function and/or makes exceptions to the core rules. This means if it doesn’t explicitly say that it ignores the core rules it doesn’t.

Apart from the bit that says "...can be used in ANY combination" and then goes on to show the exceptions to this new rule, being 2 consecutive shots at 1 target = sustained fire.

Looks like another round of rules questions for FFG that will be answered sometime mid-2012...

The stim shot is bound to bring up lots of rules problems, cause it brakes one the basis of the game's structural mechanic: ACTION+ACTION.

Major Mishap said:

The Stimulant Kit rules state actions can be used in any combination, but do not state they override any other rules, so only allowable combinations are made. Attack + Attack is specifically disallowed in the rules, so it would need a specific exception to turn it into an allowable combination. The only new combination addressed is that Attack A/Action/Attack A is added as an allowable combination. It also clarifies that two consecutive Attack actions against the same target would still be considered under Sustained Attack, and Fast still only adds one space of movement, which reinforces the orginal rules structure.

With Attack A/Attack B/Attack A/Attack B being a much more powerful attack statistically than two Sustained Attacks, it would have been ridiculous not to have addressed that if it were now a possibility. With Attack + Attack being a specific exclusion in the core rules, there is no need to address the situation, as it still cannot occur.

Nowhere does it state the rules for allowable actions from the core rules are superceded.

I think it does say the rules are superceded. "Important! Whenever the rules for a special weapon or skill contradicts the general rules, it is the special rule that prevails!"

The rules for Stimulant Kit (Skill) state only one limitation: if the squad performs two consecutive attack actions against the SAME target, it is considered a sustained attack.

I think a unit could attack A then attack B then attack A again, then attack B.

Dcal12 said:

Except that there is no contradiction to deal with. The Stimulant Kit rules don't contradict the standard rules as they are written, because they do not address the situation to create a contradiction. It acknowledges that two consecutive Attacks against the same target are a Sustained Attack, which was obvious from the initial rules. That does not contradict the standard specification of no Attack + Attack as other than a Sustained Attack.

Gimp said:

I believe "These actions can be used in any combination" is a contradiction.