Dcal12 said:

I agree. ANY combination certainly includes ATTACK+ATTACK at different targets.

Dcal12 said:

Dcal12 said:

The core rules state the same thing, and adds the exclusion on Attack + Attack separately. Stimulant Kit does not address the exclusion, but reiterates the allowance. That's significantly different than contradicting the exclusion.

The core rules have a very specific exclusion. Stimulant kit does not address the exclusion, whether to reiterate it, or remove it. Without addressing the rule, there is no contradiction of the rule.

Consider the situation from a game mechanic perspective. Two Sustained Attacks will generate less damage than four separate attacks at full force. Swapping fire back and forth between two targets is less effective use of firepower from a realistic view, yet allowing four separate swapping attacks would create a more powerful attack. Attack A/Action/Attack A is more powerful than Sustained Attack A/Action, but the player is effectively using three actions to attack in the first case, which adds an understandable element.

I have to agree with Gimp.

Using the logic that "any combination" overrides every other restriction, that means that I could stim up a command squad, and then they could do 4 command squad actions healing units like crazy, or taking multiple attempts to bring back vehicles or squads until they work, etc.

But I think it's obvious that that's not the intention here, though, and the same logic would apply to ATTACK+ATTACK.

Back to the original question - I can see one potential issue.

I could declare I'm going to Attack + Move + Attack, with the intentions that I would attack the same enemy unit with each attack. This would be a legal move, but what if the first attack destroys the unit? Am I still somehow forced into the attack, or can I change my mind on what I'm doing?

Actually, I just realized a similar example might be had without the NCO Squad coming into play. Say I decleare I will Move + ATTACK with my sniper unit. I move it just into range for my sniper to shoot the opposing unit (another sniper). That sniper does reactive fire, and picks off my sniper. Now I'm no longer in a position to attack, as I'm not in range of any enemy units. Do i have to just sit there, or can I take another MOVE action?

felkor said:

You can only perform one command squad skill per round. - Pg. 23.

felkor said:

Great point. According to the rules you spend your attack action hearing your favorite "wah wah wahhhhh" sound play in your head. If your opponent is a fan of the Simpsons, you'll probably hear Nelson's "Ha hah!"

Wombattangofoxtrot said:

My point exactly. And you and I both agree that this "Any combination of actions" rule does not override it, just like it doesn't override the no Attack + Attack rule.

If you read the entire paragraph the "Any combinations" is refering to Move and Attack actions only .

Wombattangofoxtrot said:

Why would you be able to change your mind? If that was the case don't even declare.

Well, "Nothing" is an action according to the manual. So if I declared "ATTACK" but cannot attack, then what can I do? Doing NOTHING is still doing an action other than what I declared...

We're discussing lots of rules issues here - has anybody emailed them in to FFG or Dust Studios? I'm guessing we won't get a response too soon, but we should at least get the questions in so we can have official answers at some point.

Major Mishap said:

The examples only note movement and attack actions, but nothing states that is all it is dealing with. It does not state it only impacts movement and attack actions. It states the unit may perform four actions when next activated.

One last comment. As a unit can make two consequtive sustained attacks, I don't see a problem of making consecutive attacks against different targets

Major Mishap said:

Two issues arise. First, the rules specify Attack + Attack is not an allowed combination.

Second, allowing four consecutive attacks makes the concept of the twin Sustained Attacks moot, as two separate Attacks are statistically stronger. Spraying back and forth between two separate targets is not a way to get better combat results, and the rules would be foolish to allow that kind of result. There is a significant difference between the results of two Sustained Attacks and four individual Attacks.

Stimulant Kit allows a unit to use two Attack actions against a single unit, but forces them to use another action in between while maintaining range, effectively making it a three action Attack for the statistical results of two Attack actions.

The second is a game balance issue, but the first is a specfic rules restriction not lifted by Stimulant Kit, just as the allowance to use any actions does not lift the restriction on actions only allowed once per turn due to specific restrictions.

Gimp said:

The Operation Cerberus release says that, with a Stimulant kit, you can do an Attack + Attack, as long as they are against separate targets, only consecutive attacks against the same target must be sustained... Which can be confusing when using individual weapon lines to target multiple units.What if I want to do Move/Move/Attack/Attack but I want to target separate squads on each attack with each of my ranged weapons, but the same unit for Close Combat on each attack? I can see how that could be a desirable combination. Also, two Sustained Attacks are one of the listed allowances for the use of the skill and I can see how that can be quite devastating.

My main curiosity is how things like Assault, Berserk, etc... end up working with the Stimulant Kit. Since they last for the activation one could end up moving 8 squares, or doing a Move/Attack/Move/Attack and reroll misses once. Or, again, 2 Sustained Attacks with Berserk against multiple targets can be one hell of a game changer, especially with Laser weapons... Or if Siggy is teamed with the Sniper Grenadiers... The options are insane with that one hero alone.

Stimulant Kit does need some clarity for its interface with other skills. Do single activation skills last the entire double activation, or just through half of it? I think I'd enjoy it more if it only worked for half of a unit's boosted activation, because it would make players have to think more about how they used it.

Fast and Medal of Honor already say they only work once during a unit's activation, so they would need something if they were supposed to work twice. All In One, Assault, Berserk, and Charge could work multiple times, or just once. With more speed to do things, should Command Squads only be able to use one command skill, or two? It would make the most sense if they all worked the same way

Gimp said:

Command Squads can't be injected with the stimulant shot. Rules say clearly that command squad skills don't work on other command squads.

Gimp said:

The way I read the rules is that it's a single activation, with 4 actions available (or double the normal actions, but still a single activation). Yeah, many players would love it if Heroes could only use their skills for part of the activation, but that's not necessarily the case. There are a lot of devastating options, and I don't see the issue with letting the Heroes skill run through the activation, regardless of the number of actions per activation, since they normally last the entire "normal" two action activation. Actions just allow the unit to utilize their options on the battle field, so more than 2 actions on an activation doesn't mean that their skills shouldn't work for the entire activation. And yeah, the rules are pretty clear about Command Squads only being able to use one of their skills per activation and that they will never be able to be used on any other Command Squad.

You'll have to read carefully through the fine print to be sure about which skills will be in effect for the entire prolongued activation, and which will still be limited in their use. Berserk, for example, would only affect a single attack of the drugged unit. "The unit may reroll all MISS results once for each weapon
line. A unit can only use this skill once per game. A hero with this skill shares it with any squad he joins." All of these uses of ONCE make it clear you couldn't make multiple reroll attacks in a single activation.

Thanks for the catch on Command Squads. I forgot, and was getting ready to leave so I didn't verify. It is rather odd that Command Squads can't use Stimulant Kit, unless you assume they areunder orders not to risk themselves with something not fully understood because of their value. That's a weak argument, as all special forces are considered valuable, but it does leave some usification.

Berserk says misses can be re-rolled once, which limits re-rolls, but not how many attacks it will affect. Using it once per game does not define it as per attack or per turn, though it gives a tenuous suggestion for the limit. That would be nice to clarify.

Charge fals under a similar circumstance, as it states Charge can be used for A fight action after two move actions. That, again, is not specific, but suggests the alowance foronly one Charge in a turn even with Stimulant Kit. That would also be nice to clarify.

Medal of Honor and Fast are very specific, and neither would benefit from Stimulant Kit as worded.

All In One and Assault go the opposite direction, and would benefit through the entire set of bonus actions allowed by Stimulant Kit, crreating a dichotomy in how Stimulant Kit interfaces with movement and combat enhancing abilities. It would be better if there were consistency.

Stimulant Kit creates some dangerous options that can be dealt with, though how it impact some scenarios has huge significance. If the dichotomy in application is how they want it to work, some scenarios may need to restrict Stimulant Kit, or have their victory conditions alterred to retain balance.

With the current model availability, Assault isn't that broken (no move 2 with assault, and no charge + assault combos.)

"All in one" would be VERY broken with 4 attacks - Thank goodness "all in one" is currently only a vehicle ability, so no dangers there either, for now.