Hi,

recently, the flamer has become a weapon of choice amongst my players. Some pretty tough enemies (low agility most of them) fell to these weapons - basically not due to the fire damage but due to the fact that they were effectively stunned for several rounds and taken apart by their attackers in the mean time.

What is you experience with these weapons? Is there a good way to "resist" fire attacks even if one does not have a crazy agility?

It says that some enemies, especially those that are frenzied and the like, don't have to test in order to carry on as normal - just have their opponents be die-hard types, who aren't going to let part of them being on fire stop them from attacking.

Also - use more long-ranged weaponry. They can't get close and use the flamers if they're being pinned down (remember to use the Pinning rules) or shot by automatic fire from heavy stubbers/bolters and other full-auto weaponry.

You could throw some Power armor at them too, or an enemy that doesn't fight up front like the average mook.

Also don't forget that Flamers.... Light stuff on fire. So you can put your players in a situation where extreme heat is going to get them killed, like fighting in a shallow pool of promethium, or the interior of a warehouse conveniently filled to the brim with explosives. Although you should watch out for the last one, you never know what crazy ideas players will think up to throw a wrench in your nice plan.

Is there a rule for power armor being immune to flame? I found myself in the ridiculous situation where a sort of mini-dreadnaught was engulfed in flames but could not be damaged by the ongoing effect -still, by the rules it would be panicked and unable to act. :-|

DJSunhammer said:

I like that idea. :-)

Sounds silly/jerk like but you could take into the account that maybe a stray ricochet hitting the fuel line or evil sniper shoots at the fuel tank on the PCs back. That can cause a lot of mayhem and make some PC's reconsider the choice of having one.

MILLANDSON said:

I will look up the frenzy thing - that might work with the possessed madmen that come up next.

Range is always a bit of a problem - most action takes place in tight spaces, underground or in space craft - there is never much room to use a longlas or similar things.

Radulf St. Germaine said:

Yeah, that's one of the concerns I'm having with the game I'm planning to run as well. What I think I'll do is handle any sort of non-knife range action off the map, so that sniping works like it should.

If they are using backpack-mounted fuel supply, can't enemies use called shots to make it go boom?

A good tactic is to spread out your adversaries, to minimize the effects of flamer templates and blast ranges.

I don't think it's expresly stated in the rules, but I house-rule that anyone with the Fearless Talent doesn't have to roll to act normally when on fire- so, naturally, that has become a common trait amongst my higher-end adversaries. Combined with high Toughness, it can lead to the nicely grimdark image of a burly killer being unconcerned about being on fire as he tries to kill the PCs- this can be especially disconcerting if the villain in question likes to grapple!

With reguard to power armour, before giving your adversaries any piece of high-end equipment, it is important to remember that said piece of equipment will almost certainly end up in the PCs possession...

If the group of adversaries are a technically inclined bunch, it would be reasonable for one or more of them to carry a compact fire extinguisher. I don't recall seeing any official stats for one of these; I just rule that they give +30 to the chance to put out an existing fire.

There is a mutant in purge the unclean in which his mutation makes him invincible to flame weapons and halves(i think?) las, plasma and melta shots. Throw mutants like that at your pcs and they are going to be in a bit of trouble

Sniper Servo Skulls.......

Use a dozen servo-skulls with modified autoguns and some heretek wetware.

In the Dark Heresy Supplement Inquisitor's Handbook you can get the following setup right off the paper:

• 35WS 35BS 10S 20T 40AG 15INT 35PER 20WP --FEL
• Skills: Awareness Per +20, Concealment Ag +10, Dodge Ag +10, Silent Move Ag +20
• Talents: Fearless , Weapon Training per its own Weapon
• Traits: Dark Sight, Flier 6, Machine (3, that is 3 armor), programmed Instinct, Size (Puny, -20 to hit by larger creatures, +20 concealment)
• Weapons: Unarmed 1d10-3 I Primitive OR Installed Weapon; Ranged Weapons come with a Red Dot Sight (+10)

A note about weapons : It can have a single ranged weapon, like an autocarbine or lascarbine, though any Pistol or compact BASIC weapon can be fitted.

A few Possible Weapon Load Outs:

• LongLas (BASIC 75m (range halved for Compact), single shot, 1d10+3 E, Pen 1, Clip 40 (20, halved for Compact), Accurate, Reliable, Compact)
• Stormbolter (BASIC 45m (range halved for Compact), S/2/4, 1d10+5 X, Pen 4, Clip 60 (30, halved for Compact), Storm , Tearing, Compact)
• Ceres Pattern Bolt Pistol (Pistol, 30m range, S/2/-, 1d10+5 Pen 4, Clip 8x3 (Fire Selector, 3 8 round clips), Tearing, Fire Selector)

Use terrain to your advantage. have them spread out to prevent close combat monsters from using all their attacks against different opponents.

Use smaller servitor-lites to keep track fo the players:

Vox-Bug (Scarce) Coin Sized DH:RH p158
A tiny servitor with a roach brain which will broadcast on pre-set Vox Channel what is said or done around it. Range 1 km, Ag 40 Concealment Skill. Can scuttle to its target and conceal itself among their clothing and/or possessions. May NOT have any upgrades.

Pict-Fly (Rare) DH:RH p157
As the Vox-Bug the Pict-Fly transmits pictures and sounds (poor quality, -20 on Hearing based Tests). Ag 50 Concealment Skill. limited intelligence to follow basic commands.

.....So you can have the skulls attack at the right moment.

So, not only do you have a well armed force, they are mobile (flight), heavily armed and hard to hit. Attack in packs with a few sniper skulls supporting a few storm and Ceres bolt skulls on the close attack spread out to lessen the advantage of area effect weapons on the part of the players. And they're fearless.

If you want better than 35BS +10 red dot sight and whatever firing mode bonus use twin linked bolt pistols or compact las rifles to get the +20%. Give them Targeters for the +10 on semi and auto fire if you want.

Of course each skull could have a pair of grenades strappe dto it so if its captured it goes up or it can drop them behind to discourage pursuit or drop them on characters from above.

Environmental factors are also a good way to "nerf" flame weapons: high winds can cause flamer bursts or thrown firebombs to veer off course, and driving rain can greatly reduce the range of a flamer, and give a bonus to put out any resulting flames.

Adeptus-B said:

Actually, the rules do state that those who are crazed, or fearless, don't have to roll - they act as normal.

The flamer are in this game overpowered when comes the blast effect aera but underpowered when it comes to damage. But still lethal and deadly for unarmoured NPC.

A real military flamer can ignite things on a 40m range and take of flesh from bones, melted armor and flesh before burning it and let not so much from the hit aera. temperature are between 800 to 1200c° for WW2 flamethrower and 1500c° for more modern.

With that kind of weapon if you are hit you die first by the burning of your lungs and the heavy loss on O2 if you may have still some lungs inside you. But you got only at the most 10s of fire in the tank so cover a 30° aera will burn all the fuel really fast. but in closed space it's deadly, that why it had been made.

Therefore if being hit by a flamer didn't kill the NPC then why not let him go you are the GM roll dice say it's done and voilà. For no name it will be few and far beetween and named characters deserved best. You are here to tell a story, cheat if you must but do it with care because most of all it's your and yours players fun.

Btw high volatile aera are indeed a fun place to put players with flamers. Demons are great too.

Radulf St. Germaine said:

Hi there.

A lot of good suggestions so far. Now to really f#@k with them and teach them a lesson. This may cost someone a fate point.

FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE! Attack them in an overwhelming ambush with flame weapons exactly as they do to their enemies. They will all poo their pants and should get the message as well.

(just for the record, I also run Paranoia, so I can be that way sometimes when I feel players are frakking with me or not getting the hint )

Or send them into a foundry or volcano base run by enviro-blast-suited heat-resistant mutant cultists who will laugh at their choice of weapons.

Webbers. Very nice. Pass your agility, or you fall over completely helpless (which gives all sorts of nice bonuses to the enemies), and can do nothing except to try to break free. Have several enemies with webbers.

Blind grenades. Thrown around corners or from behind cover when hidden. Flash-bang, your flamer-toting Acolyte can't see, and might even be stunned a little. Then charge and engage in melee. No Basic weapons may be used in melee.

Or lure them onto a boat. Then sink the boat. Watch them flame themselves out of that!

Or have the badguys hire assassins to kill them. Then think smart. Let the assassin tail them for a while, find their safehouse. Send them a letter-bomb. Players love it when they receive handouts, so give them an envelope, watch them tear it open and pull out the little note you left inside saying "boom".

Hi all,

thanks for the input- I will definitely use some of the ideas. However, my main intention is not to crush the players like the vermin they are - instead I want to challenge them with interesting combats and still give them the joy of squirting firey death upon their enemies. ;-)

I guess creative placement of explosive/inflamable material is a cool idea. Plus, I need more helpers with extinguishers and more outdoor combat at longer ranges. (BTW, what does a real army do angainst flamers?)

Fighting fire with fire is sth. I have been doing - but whether that increases the fun factor for everyone? I am not sure.

Radulf St. Germaine said:

They shoot the guys with the flamers first . I think there is a scene at the beginning of Saving Private Ryan that shows what happens when a guy carrying a flamer gets caught in the open....

I would say it is within your rights as GM to have the enemy forces focus fire on Flamer wielders. After all, nobody wants to die in a horrific pyre of weapons-grade napalm. This should be especially true if the enemies somehow become aware of the PC's extensive Flamer usage - it's not like these weapons are subtle, after all.

Just don't attempt to "fight fire with fire". Once or twice could be amusing, but it otherwise detracts from the players' feeling of uniqueness and the temptation to escalate into a Flamer arms race would be too strong.

Radulf St. Germaine said:

How about some fleet-footed Dark Eldar, with Unnatural Agility and Dodge (+10) and thus the ability to evade the flamer cone with a very high probability. Maybe even some deadly h-t-h-combat focussed Wyches. A Pyromancer with the Endure Flame or Molten Man power could show them the true power of psychic fire. Some Fenksworld Scum in insulation suits as mentioned in the IH, which more or less ignores any heat and fire based attack.

There are a variety of ways to turn the flame onto them if you want to. The psychic power that lets you control people or I think there are halucinogen grenades that produce effects where they might flame each other. You do want to be careful with all of these though as you said. I would say that if the enemies have a realistic way of getting the info that the PC's love to flame they can reasonably have taken steps. At the end of the day I don't think the PCs will like it if they always win by flaming.

You could also go the other way and start offering them different gear that is powerful but different...

one word: Vindicare