Angelic Despot said:

You are right, it's not the fluff in the Creature's Guide that's essential and you don't need the Guides after you picked, let' say a creature. But I like the Guides for the picking. That's what I meant. In the Guides you can read all the cards more easily, especially on the bus, in the park, on the balcony -- and that makes preparation more comfortable. Once you picked the actions, spells and things, you get them out of the deck of cards. So at the gaming table I still prefer the cards, but while brainstorming, preparing, searching before the actual game, I find the Guides very handy. So that was my intended point.

And just to be sure: I was talking about getting the Guides rather than a SECOND Core Set, so that doesn't mean instead of the Core Set. I find the Core Set the best entry point.

"the lack of a decent key listing which creature has which actions as standard": Yeah. What a mess. After the updated errata my hope returned that they will fix this with a download sheet. I can't believe that they won't react to this really big issue, that each and every owner of the Creature's Guide (and the Vault) has.

Thanks for the purchase suggestions. This is my before-play shopping list so far:

CORE SET - Got it.

ADVENTURER'S TOOLKIT - Got it.

EXTRA DICE - Need to count what I have, may pass. Only will have 2 players.

CREATURE VAULT - Sounds like I want it before campaign starts.

GATHERING STORM - The campaign. Althought I might start with the Core adventure, it seems like a good intro.

Want to get:

GM's TOOLKIT - GM screen and extras look tasty.

GM's VAULT- Lots of extras it seems. May hold off for a long while.

PRIEST/WIZARD EXPANSIONS - Costly, but want to add especially if there is a PC Priest/Wizard.

OMEN'S OF WAR - Got to have horses!

PLAYER'S GUIDE - For a better explanation of the rules.

The Creature Vault is not essential but I do find it very handy. I stole someone's idea (sorry poster, don't recall who) and put yellow stickies on back with bottom part showing below bottom of card and voila - a place to check off the ACE use. When I need to make a note of extra cards or something it can go on back of sticky. Old Magic Gathering sleaves (being larger than these card sizes) then make good holders for the creature card and its action cards.

So when Wargors or Witch Hunter appear - presto, there they are ready to use.

Of course, then I later need the cards for a different creature - no system perfect.

The Wizard, Priest and Omens boxes are generically useful for Corruption/Mutation, Disease and Permanent Criticals respectively. They all add more grim, perilous consequences to handling warpstone, being bitten by rat swarms are getting in even a bar fight and being unlucky.

If budgeting $$ I would hold off on Omens (it's more useful at higher level), and otherwise go with whichever career-focused box your table leans to.

Here is a link with discussion of what products to buy early on. It seems to detail and reinforce what others have said above.

Sturn said:

Just a few more pointers on these:

Extra dice: with only 2 players, and starting characters, those in the core set (designed for 3 but to cope with 4 players) will be plenty. Hold off on getting more until you're sure you need them. And when you do think you need them, then consider getting a second core set. (I'm not saying get it, just consider it around the time you're thinking of getting more dice.)

GM's Toolkit: remember - there are free to download rules summaries that you can print and stick to card and which contain far more useful rules than those on the official screen. If you like it, then get it, but it's really not a 'must have'. All of the extra cards are also nice, but not necessary to begin with. Start playing, and then see if you would like more locations, items, etc.

GM's Vault: this is basically a repeat of stuff in the core set! If you're thinking of getting this... And you're thinking of buying more dice... You can see where I'm heading. If there's extra stuff in here (I can't remember now), then remember that it's all included in one or more of the other supplements that you're bound to get eventually - the magic and priestly ones.

I agree with Valvorik's point that Omens of War is cool to have, but probably one to get after the priest and wizard expansions.

The GM Vault does not include things you don't have in the Core Set! It is only useful, if you want or need more of the same stuff.

korknadel said:

Personally one of the things I like best about WFRP3 (and there are many things I like) is how loose and abstract it is. I found the fan-made list suggesting which action cards are used by which NPC useful, but I did not find it essential nor do I find the lack of an official one a "really big issue" the same way I do not have a problem with the lack of detailed maps.

I think it is cool how any card can go with any NPC, more or less, with some imagination. This aspect of the game really helps me out in not feeling that I commit any errors or are using the rules wrongly which in turn makes me feel a lot more free as a GM than with any other game I've played to date. I love this feeling.

I can totally get why many people feel this is an oversight but I wanted to throw another opinion out there.

Angelic Despot said:

The screen isn't the key part with the Toolkit, at least not for me. The thing with the Toolkit are the Nemesis rules and specifically the Nemesis organisation sheets and monster sheets (like Party Sheets but for NPCs/monsters tracking morale and other things). The toolkit also have a lot of helpful suggestions for the GM which you might find useful or not.

I am not sure if Universalheads' rules summary are still floating around out there but if you want it I got it. There are a lot of other really good summaries but that's the best one I find.

The GMs screen makes a handy thing for me to cover up with charts and tables that I actually use:
* Condition summary sheet
* d10 charts for unresolved comet or star
* How healing works
* How spellcasting works
etc.

I keep mine on the table flat next to me and flip it open as necessary.

IMO, the gms screen and rules lite character sheet were the least well-thought out portions of this game system.

jh

p.s. I have found the Players Guide to be the single most useful reference in the entire line of release. I urge anyone who is serious about this game to pick it up.

p.s.s. the GMs screen has table summaries of all the cards, which is pretty handy if you're reducing table clutter, but I think most people just use the cards.

p.s.s. I absolutely detest the slop-jar approach to the Creature Guide not having the standard actions, much less not having them in table format like all the other "rules lite" releases. It consider it bait and switch. If you list the monster talents twice in the same rulebook, but don't list the monster actions, that's just not playing honest imo. [rant off]

But the Creature Guide has all the Creature Actions in table format for playing lite and for easy reference. I am a bit of a loss what your rant is about.

@bladerunner:

Sure, I also like the free and abstract approach of WFRP3rd. And I like the idea, that I am encouraged to assemble any kind of Creature Action Cards when preparing an encounter. But even so I'd like to have that list for two reasons:

1. To be able to quickly assemble the actions for encounter that are not worth a special preparation.

2. and most of all to do that on the spot. If it turns out during a session that I need a monster I haven't planned beforehand, I really would like to have a table to look up what actions "belong" to that monster, so I don't need to tell my players: You can take a half hour break while I figure out the actions for the monster you unexpectedly stumbled upon.