I'm an old RPG player, own 1st and 2nd Edition Warhammer RPG (but never played it), understand some of the lore of Warhammer, but never read a novel. Did play Warhammer Online for a bit not sure if that is a good thing or not. Never played Warhammer miniatures battles, not my thing.

My play group for games currently consists of only myself, a nephew, and my wife. Boardgames (favorite is FFG's Game of Thrones) is the most common thing played on game nights. Myself and nephew love both RPGs and boardgames, wife loves boardgames (especially fantasy ones), but seems bored when it comes to RPGs. WoW was her introduction to RPGs and spoiled things for her I think.

My point? I'm hoping the 3rd edition Warhammer RPG will be a mix of boardgame and RPG enough that my wife will get on board (no pun intended). But, I'm reluctant to run out and buy it when the gamble will cost me just to get the core set.

My Hopes:

1. The cool tokens, cards, etc will mesmerize the wife into thinking it's half-boardgame so she will ignore the price tag and like playing it.

2. The hardware of the 3rd edition makes the game run quickly, or at least more excitingly, alleviating wife's boredom of page flipping, slow action, etc.

3. The Gathering Storm campaign plus the play aids available will make me as a GM not have to spend so much time in preparation (fatherly and career duties come first leading to long lapses between play sessions during my usual RPG campaigns).

My Fears:

1. While the tokens/dice/cards are cool, it's still a slow-paced RPG and my wife bails.

2. The setting on its surface seems almost whimsical in parts (exploding Orc shaman heads). I hope this isn't stressed in the RPG including the Gathering Storm campaign I hope to run (I see alternate adventures, but not alternate campaign boxes, I'm hoping Gathering Storm is dark and gritty).

3. If myself and my wife love it, I will get pulled into purchasing a stockpile of extra dice, the vaults, the hardcovers, etc. (actually not a fear completely, kind of a hope as long as the Void Demoness, I mean wife, lets me run havoc with hobby money).

Thanks. Honest responses please!

About your hopes:

1-2. The cards really make the game run faster/smoother with less flipping through books as the rules you need are right there on the cards. Half boardgame, not really, but it lends mechanics from boardgames at least. Also, make sure to get some extra dice, as sharing dice can slow the game down considerably, depending on how big the group of players is.

3. Yes, sure, preping for a gaming night is quite fast as a matter of fact.

About your fears:

1. It's an RPG, but you can allways try to focus more on the action parts and less on the slower parts. The Gathering Storm is mostly action, combat and heroics throughout the adventure, not that much "slow-going" social interaction. All of course depending on the GM.

2. Orcs (or mainly goblins) are kind of the comic relief in the warhammer world, but they are still cruel and evil even though the shamans head might explode when failing a spell.

3. Well, it's kind of a pricy game but to play the gathering storm you really only need the core box, the gathering storm box and some extra dice. But it sure is worth it in my oppinion.

Hey Sturn, I think I can offer a pretty informed opinion.

I am also a long time RPG player who was brand new to Warhammer as of this edition. I only got interested in the property from playing the Warhammer: Invasion card game, and then when I found out that there was a new buzzed about RPG version, I picked up the players guide and started reading. Within a half year I was running a game.(it would have been much sooner, but during that time, my wife gave birth to our daughter a bit early, and it required most of my attention)

Once you grok the rules, everything becomes very very simple. There's a lot for the GM to know but the player only needs to understand some very simple rules, namely the core dicepool mechanic. I know this is a good game for RPG newbs, because of my party of 5, three are brand new to RPGs, and after two sessions, they were rolling like pros.

It's also my first time GM'ing, and the system is exquisitely designed to fudge it on the fly. You will never need to look up the swimming speed of a character in chainmail, you just mod the dice pool on the fly as you see fit. It seems more abstract on paper, but it's for the player it's easier to understand that they get one black die for their armor, and another black die because the water is cold, than to add +4 and +2 to the DC. Everything is geared around narrative, not simulation.

Hopes!

1) Absolutely. One of my newbs is my wife, who was only a boardgamer before, and not even a fantasy fan. After a singles session, she gave me a character backstory and is constantly asking questions about minute details of the story. She barely cares about the rules, but navigates them fine, she just likes being in a story, which is why she likes board games. The cards and tokens totally help her visualize the story.

2) I would think for the most part yes. There will be some slowdown as your players try to learn what a fatigue token is and why they care, but once the learning curve is topped, it will move faster. Knowing exactly what your badass move does because you have the card always means all our combats have been flourish filled and exciting, and rarely slowed by rules. I have never played a single DnD session that did not stall for 10 minutes while we looked up how to grapple. Also, the system is very very modular. If a certain rule/component doesn't work for you, very little will be lost of you excise it.

3) Can't speak to this, because I haven't run it, and I am new to GM'ing, but I spent only a small amount of prep time on our first sessions. I will say: Without the creature vault, it would have been longer prep and run slower. The creature cards are amazing. I just got gathering storm, and it looks like a good, flexible sandbox with lots of hooks. I love the handouts and maps, and since the system is so visual, I've take to making wax-sealed and tea-stained letters and props for my PCs already. Every boxed adventure so far has nice little handouts, but mine are more tactile.

Fears!

1) It can be slow, but I have 5 PCs. I think with two PCs, you will rocket right along. And given that it's so flexible, there's a lot of GM tools to speed it up, slow it down, tough it up, soften up, etc built in. You will adapt.

2) Like I said, I am new to Warhammer. I prefer the gritty Black Plauge/Holy Roman Empire/Lovecract aesthetic to the Soccer Hooligan Orc sillieness. From what I can tell, it is NOT stressed in Gathering Storm (which is pretty dark) but I am only half way through reading it. And I think if it were there, you could safely excise it, just like any other system.

3) You're screwed. Sorry. If you have any collector instinct, it's all over. Here, I'll make it worse: Every set, in addition to bits and bobs made for that adventure, have great things that can be used anywhere in the campaign, ever. But, none of it (aside from the magic or faith box sets) is essential.

Hope that helps, and have a blast!

Sturn said:

I think you're going to be disappointed if you are looking for a mindless boardgame rpg. You'd be better suited to The Burning Wheel or Mouse Guard, which do not really allow for so much roleplaying as a choice of 1 of 4 actions. Roll dice. Repeat.

On the other hand, if you like scenarios that go 85% non-combat/investigation/roleplaying, you'll do fine.

The components are not going to help anyone who doesn't like roleplaying enjoy roleplaying. They're just tracking mechanisms.

Warhammer online isn't a very good introduction either because that's just a bunch of "kill people and take their stuff" and "kill other PCs and gloat" in my opinion. That game is DEVOID of any plot, roleplaying, or interesting "quests" whatsoever. It was just a sub-par mmo licensing attempt with good eye-candy. Thankfully for it however, we gained lots of good artwork for WFRP3.

If you want to roleplay, best to play with roleplayers (join a meet-up). You're not going to be able to change people..and wives especially.

..

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I should have the Core box in my hands tomorrow

I've gathered lots of helpful stuff for beginners on my blog (including various tutorial videos). I think you should check them out as especially the videos give a great visual advice of how the game works.

Access my blog HERE. (opens in a new window)

Emirikol said:

Personally, I think you're drastically misrepresenting BW and MouseGuard, Emirikol. They actually require WAY MORE ROLEPLAYING than WFRP. In fact, if played as intended, they pretty much require that the players entirely drive the story while the GM takes a backseat facilitator-type role. in fact, the MG system encourages you only to create a bare-bones storyline because you're supposed to take the ultimate storyline from what the players decide to do, rather than forcing the players along a predetermined path.

But we can have that conversation elsewhere.

As for the OP's comments, it's hard to say what your wife will like. Get her involved in the process of creating and choosing a campaign so she feels as though she has some say in the way the game will be played. Talk to her about the difference between a heroic/action scenario and a sandbox/intrigue scenario. Point out that Warhammer's actually one of the more female-friendly RPGs on the market, if that sort of thing matters to her.

Sometimes we women are loathe to jump in because the guys have been playing for years and they feel at a disadvantage; if you point out that everyone will be on a level playing field with a new RPG and that she can have some input into how you play, she might be more willing to give it a go.

Finally, if she doesn't go for WFRP, cast a wider net. I played d20 systems for fifteen years and liked them quite a bit, but I really fell in love with roleplaying games when I started playing Indie games that focus more heavily on the social aspects of gaming than on the rules. Go to a local con and let her try some different systems out.

Curse you and your RPG playing spouses!

Crazy Aido said:

It helps if you meet each other when playing an RPG.

Crazy Aido said:

Conversion is possible. It only took me... 15 years? Just keep at it!

Sturn said:

Where I come from: I'm a Warhammer fan coming from this position: started playing only 3rd edition, having purchased some earlier edition books over prior years but not playing it. In 40's, played D&D in all its iterations since 1981 and have played a few other games - all mostly as GM. Over 40 sessions into Warhammer as GM.

Re Hopes and Fears

I gave up on D&D due to too much complexity, too much prep time, players constantly forgetting rules such as what their spells did and having to look them up, combats eating up too much time and dominating table. I find Warhammer better on all these fronts. My players don't need to reference rules - once basics understood, action cards are self-explanatory. Print off one of the great fan-made summaries that include a listing of specialities under each skill and that also then helps move along fast in knowing which skill is used for something even if you don't have speciality

Speed of play in any system is a bit dependent on play styles and such but I find warhammer can play something fast as long as you don't get into using progress trackers without allowing creativity (having to make same check over and over boring). The bits may seem slowing but they represent various "gears and cycles" and can make social, environmental and other challenges risky not just fights. A creepy horror scenario for example can use Stress and be menacing without ever drawing blood.

The baseline warhammer universe is grim and perilous with a bit of humour injected throughout. Goblins speak working class English slang etc. and are somewhat "comic relief". This can be varied to personal taste. Gathering Storm has three adventures kicked off by a mystery. I think it underuses the mystery component but it does make a good sand box that can be played tragically or lightly to taste (I've posted my adventure log of playing it here, as I do all my major sessions).

The GM has to be knowledgeable to run Warhammer but players don't need to study up much, though spellcasters are a bit more complex to run than non-spellcasters.

- On seperate thread - yeah I don't agree with the trashing of Burning Wheel etc. if that was serious - it's not my favourite system as it has too many different bits but it's definitely a roleplaying system.

I didn't mean to trash burning wheel too much. I just cant wrap my head around it yet. Llan and one of my players know it well...

jh

I do not have that much to add other than the fact that I too am playing WFRP3 with my wife. She doesn't mind roleplaying at all but regardless we've been having a great time and I really do feel that WFRP3 is a very beginner friendly game.

In fact, and quite ironic I personally think, it seems to be veteran roleplayers that have the most problem grasping or accepting the mechanic of WFRP3.

I agree with the general geist of the thread so far, it is easy, you have all you need on your cards, the set up (creature cards etc.) makes preparing relatively easy. The world in general is quite gritty and this is also conveyed through the mechanic (disease, critical and severe wounds etc.).

In short - GO FOR IT!

I have the Core set in hand now. Love all the pieces, good looking books, starting my read through now. I had fun opening the box like a kid at Christmas and forcing my wife to look at all of the goodies. The "General FAQ and Erratta" PDF has any updates I need? I see three cards in the Support section as if they are updated?

Llanwyre said:

You don't know my wife, I think she would take over as party leader eventually of any gaming session. She does have short-lived RPG gaming experience in the form of some Star Wars d20 and a little Green Ronin Song if Ice and Fire. She just seems to get bored with the RPGs quick, likes boardgames better.

valvorik said:

This is what I had hoped for and looks like the Core box will deliver. I didn't return to D&D since 1st/2nd Edition until the streamlined Star Wars d20 came out due to over-complexity. Any system I've played I always ended up making large amounts of GM and Player Aids beforehand. I had self-made "action cards" for players way back in 2nd Edition D&D. Looks like WFRP did all the work for me and more.

valvorik said:

I see tons of print-outs, fan-made and those from this official site. I've got lots of time until a campaign starts so no worries. I've got a folder of Gitzman's aids downloaded and see the long list of official Resources at this site. There are so many I don't know where to start. I might have a better idea of what is needed after I complete a read of the rulebook.

Doc Cthulhu thanks for the link!! (couldn't add another quote for some reason)

Supplement Questions

When I get a chance, what products should I pick up next? Since I wasn't here as each was released, it's kinda overwhelming (a good thing, I see early reviews complaining about needing more dice, not enough PC resources, etc).

Someone suggested the Creature supplements and I've noticed comments about not having action cards for creatures in the Core set? Do I need the Player and GM hardbacks or does the Core set books + Erratta give me everything they have? I'm the type that will eventually get everything if I like WFRP (you should see my game library in the basement) , but need some suggestions of where to start. Extra dice seems a consensus here. What is the difference between the Vaults and Toolkits? If I get the Gathering Storm campaign to begin, will it have cards/standups for any Creatures encountered or will I need the Creature vault and/or book?

No Game Mat

The biggest change I've noticed (not read the rules yet) is the lack of a game mat with minis. I've used minis and a game mat since 1984. I'm hoping the standups and "location cards" will be refreshing for me and my players and we won't miss the minis+mat. It would be nice to not have to count squares and reference a chart to figure out range and penalties for missile attacks, for example. So I hope I can accept what WFRP has done, but if not are minis & mats easily shoe-horned into the rules as written?

Again, thanks for the comments!

Sturn said:

...have you asked her if she might like to GM, then? I thought my own patience for RPGs was running out, then I found a whole bunch of games that my husband didn't want to run and I did. The minute I started GMing, I found that I was more interested than ever--even in games that weren't totally my thing.

Of course, having two GMs in the family can cause its own kind of strife. My husband and I are often at war about who gets to lead the next adventure....

Sturn said:

Oh, yeah. I use mats, minis, and cardstock scenery extensively. I don't use them to count squares or distances exactly, but they're very useful to help the players visualize where they might hide during combat or terrain they might use to "Perform a Stunt."

Sturn said:

If you are a the kind of person who gets it all eventually anyways (if you like the game) I strongly recommend that you pick up:

1. The Player's Guide

2. The Game Master's Guide

3. Creature Vault

There's really no point in waiting with these as they will help you out tremendously in the beginning.

The two guides do a much, MUCH, better job at explaining the rules and the setting than the core book. It will probably save you some headache if you read them first (and then you won't really need to read the core book anyways). I got them as pdf but sort of regret it because they are much handier as a reference during a session because of their better organisation.

The Creature Vault with the creature cards are one of the best aspects of WFRP3, simple as that.

Minis and Stand-ups are completely interchangeable. Gaming on a mat with squares or the like would require a little bit of adjustments to ranges, moves and that sort of thing but considering the number of people who play online with GM-Tools I would be surprised if this isn't already done.

Happy Gaming!

bladerunner_35 said:

Can you use the Creature Vault without the Creature Guide? A.i. must I have the information on the creatures from the guide in order to use the props in the vault?

my creature guide is gathering dust. it's pointless. the vault is a must.

i regret buying the guides, for me they added nothing new. they were basically the guides from the existing products (at the time of release) consolidated, with content from the errata and FAQ. (only problem was they introduced new errors).

even the benefit of having the content from the existing products is no great boon, because you don't get the cards and tokens necessary to use them efficiently at the table.

my recommendation is the following:

1. creature vault.

2. additional dice.

3. adventurers toolkit.

from there it would be personal taste or determined by your players career and race choices.

does corruption and mutation appeal?

permanent injuries appeal?

oh and if you are into making your own bits and bobs then you need to check out strange eons and the liber fanatica 7 plug in.

Sturn said:

As have been said the Creature Guide is not necessary. Mostly it is filled with fluff, which while nice aren't all that usefull unless you are new to the setting. The other half of the book is filled with lists of creature actions and statistics for the creatures (which you all get on the Vault but on cards). The only thing missing from the Vault is an actual key to the cards. However, this key can also be found in Omen's of War and regardless I'll gladly help you out with information about interpreting the cards. It is certainly not worth buying the Guide exclusively because of this.

Seems like you're getting a lot of conflicting advice on what to get next... Here are my suggestions:

At first - nothing. The core set can support 3 players (and the GM) without difficult, so see if you like it first. If you do, then think about what to get next.

Player's Toolkit: Lots of cool new actions, talents and careers. I highly recommend this.

Hardback books: I don't recommend these. With the rules summaries available for free, they add very little. If you're going to get everything eventually, fine, but if you're not getting everything at once, then go for cool new additions to the game, not imperfect reprints of what you've already got.

Player's Vault, GM's Vault and extra dice: I don't recommend these. if you need more of the core bits, then it's much better value to just buy a new core set. From a site like Amazon, it's not too expensive and you'll get enough duplicate cards to fulfill your every need, and loads of dice. Think about it: 4 sets of extra dice cost almost as much as a whole new core set. I bought myself a second core set and don't regret it.

GM's Guide/Screen: It does contain useful stuff... But none of it is essential. As a completist you'll probably like what's in it, but you really, really won't miss it if you don't have it. The screen has less useful information than some of the free downloadable screens/summaries available too.

Winds of Change / Omens of War / Signs of Faith: I highly recommend all of these.

• If you don't have any wizard PCs, then you don't need Winds of Change. Unlike some of the other options, I still think it's worth getting, but it won't be at the top of the list.
• Signs of Faith is more worth getting, even if you don't have any priest characters, and that's because the information on Gods and religions is relevant to everyone. If you're not a wizard, you usually don't know anything about magic. If you're not a priest, you'll still know a fair bit about all of the Gods. Also, the disease rules are useful and cool.
• Omens of War has the cool permanent wound cards, some more fighting action cards, and careers etc. It's all good, but you can manage without to begin with.

The Adventures: I recommend these. But which you pick, and whether or not you pick one or more of them before the Winds/Omens/Signs supplements depends on how much you like having pre-made adventures.

• Gathering Storm is quite a good introduction to the warhammer world, as it has lots of humour and a variety of opponents.
• Edge of Night is shorter and probably requires more experience or thought from the GM to get everything to hang together well. You probably get more out of it too if you've played a few games. There are several posts on these forums about how people have used this box as a springboard or framework for all kinds of political adventures.
• Witch's Song is a bit more unusual for warhammer, but still has a variety of different things for the players to get involved in and lots of opportunities for the characters to make meaningful decisions that can really affect the fate of the town and the lives of the various NPCs.

All of the adventures contain extra actions/talents/new bits for players and actions etc for NPCs (eg. spells) that you can re-use. I think (and this goes for all published adventures for all games) that you'll need to do some work to adapt them to your players. It's also worth mentioning that the three Winds/Omens/Signs boxes each come with a mini-adventure too.

The only other thing to add, re: your wife enjoying RPGs but getting bored, is to try to make the adventure 'modular'. The published adventures all do this naturally, and the GM advice encourages this too. What I mean is, don't do what I did when I was a student: start a campaign that's designed to last years, with you gradually killing more and more powerful enemies, becoming richer and harder as time progresses... Instead, make the focus the story. And remember that stories have endings.

That doesn't mean you can't then begin a new story with the same characters, that follows on from the last one, but if you as a group feel that you've 'completed' an adventure, you not only have a sense of achievement, but don't feel that you're trapped in a never ending game. You can stop the game at this appropriate time if you want without feeling that you're letting the campaign fizzle out, and if you continue, you know you'll have another opportunity to do the same thing. Now that life gets in the way of gaming a lot more than it did years ago, I think it's important to build in these breaks / potential 'end of season finale' episodes.

So while in the city taking wife out to eat (leverage for my previous order of the Core set) I picked up an Adventurer's Vault. Lots of new careers. Thanks for the advice. I wanted the Creature Vault too and some dice, but thought I better not press it with the Void Demoness and got the cheaper of the two. My favorite not so local game store was out of the dice so I'll probably end up ordering two packages (add Core dice, enough for GM plus 2 players?). I understand a second Core set may be more economical in the long run, but it's better to spread the silvers out a bit over time, my accountant tends to notice gold pieces being spent. Note: Noticed the pet dog in the Adventurer's Vault, something I know my wife would enjoy having along with a future PC.

So on the trip home I described what the new Warhammer was like with cards and tokens for tracking things. Wife seemed to like this. I explained that Warhammer was made by FFG which is the same company that makes 1/2 the stockpile of boardgames we have downstairs. Apparently I pitched it well since she asked about playing in a couple weeks!! I had to put the date off a bit though since I'm only half-way through the Core rulebook!

Thanks again for the help.

My wife loves WFRP3rd !

I think you have done the right thing buying the Adventurer's Toolkit.

I just want to add that I'd rather buy the Guides than a second Core Set, because I find the Guides (the Player's and Creature's mostly) quite useful. I don't like giong through all the cards, so for quick reference the Guides are really helpful for me. And the rules explanations in the Player's Guide are better than those in the Core Set.

After that I would recoomend both Winds of Magic and Signs of Faith. The first has the corruption and mutation rules and spells for all the eight orders of magic. The included adventure Winds of Change I find one of the best Warhammer Fantasy Adventures ever. Signs of Faith has very, very beautiful fluff about Nurgle, hilarious disease rules, an adventure that isn't perfect, but fits perfectly in with other published adventures in the Übersreik region (Eye for an Eye from the Core Set, Edge of Night and Gathering Storm) -- and you have all the religious orders and their blessings.

Omens of War centers around all things combat. Eventually you'll need it, but not early on.

The beautiful thing about WFRP3rd (at least for me) is, that with each new supplement it's Christmas all over for the child in me.

Core Set + Adventurer Vault is a great start, and yes it's not Warhammer if you can't have a Ratcatcher and their SBVD.

I think that's more than enough with the Day Late Shilling Short free download and included adventure in core set to try it out. I admit, I found the included adventure Eye for an Eye daunting to consider while new to system myself, but it ran just fine when I did run it after Gathering Storm (my actual sequence was a converted Rough Night at Three Feathers from earlier edition, Gathering Storm, then Eye for an Eye).

Depending on # of players, you don't need more dice than the core set.

Let us know how it goes.

korknadel said:

That's a perfectly valid observation - I guess it really comes down to what sort of GM you are and what you find most convenient. A couple of things that sway it more towards the cards for me are:

- I don't need to use the book to help me decide what to include. Theme and the story decides that. If you have a fair understanding of the warhammer setting (and like me you intend to adapt it - downplaying or cutting things you don't like, but playing up things you do), then although the background in the creatures' guide may be interesting, it's hardly essential. If you don't know much about the background, then reading it will help you create much more thematic adventures, and so the guide book will be more appealing.

- I need the rules for what I've picked, but what I've picked doesn't depend on the rules. But in play, it's easier to refer to the cards on the table than to keep looking stuff up in a book. So having concluded that I don't really need the book to help me make my choices, nor do I really need it during an encounter when I've got the cards to refer to.

I'm not saying the guide is rubbish (except for the lack of a decent key listing which creature has which actions as standard); just trying to provide information to help you decide in which order you should get things.

sturn, one thing i recommend is try running a small battle on your own first. say beastmen, vs pc's and an allied NPC soldier.

you'll see how problematic book keeping the creatures are when they are in the core book.

personally i found it impossible run and have fun myself. it actually put me off of the game completely. i shelved it. it wasn't until the creature vault was released that i returned to the game and have really enjoyed it since then.