so im GMing and im running into some problems with the techmarine is far more super human than the rest of the team becuase of 800xp for TFIW, also i think it belies a lack of progression for the toon since theres no need for bionics really except to grab the ones that give you buffs.

what it really boils down to is mostly hypotecial talk that goes like;

GM "well this could happen to you guys"

genric marine one "oh that could be bad"

tech marine " im a robot huurrr spechial tatic"

GM" your still partially human this should be a problem for you too"

tech marine "nah RAW(ive made a stand to use most of the RAW as RAW) says i dont need to breathe and your mind lazers cant get me"

GM "**** that trait"

Tell him where he can stick his RAW. I say he gains the armor against fire damage, and the extra armor, but his brain is not replaced.

Or just make all EMP effects, electric attacks etc. instant death because his brain burns out. Either way.

Throw a rust monster (oxidation daemon) at him, that will shut him up.

Tell him the rust accumulation from his blundered cleansing rituals has caused an interpherence in his processor thingy, causing the same effect at the same time as everyone else.

Easy solution.

1) The RAW in this game is often vague so you have to refer to Rule 1: Rationality Always Applies. And it says 'no that ability doesn't do anything beyond what it specifically states'. Unless he wants to be irrational and argue about it, and then if he does, then he's not worth arguing with since he's being irrational.

My GM has adopted the policy that though 'Machine' is a Trait that you gain when taking the 'The Flesh is Weak' Talent, the wording of 'Machine' is meant for those enemies/allies or whatever that are actually machines and that my Techmarine character only gets the benefit of those upgrades that make sense on the basis of his bionics and upgrades.

For example - Mechanicum Implants come with a Respirator so 'doesn't breathe' is fair enough, whereas something like 'immune to mind control powers' will only apply when my brain has been fully (or as good as) replaced.

It seemed a bit arbitrary at first, but actually makes a lot of sense now I've got used to it.

GMort. said:

that policy is RAW-ish. TFIW(1) gives the machine trait and thats kind of where i have a problem, my deal is that it feels to me like it robs the marine of a reason to go after specific bionics because well, without saying it hes darth vadered up. its also EXTREMELY vauge as to what has been replaced so its hard to argue out hey this part doest function yet becuase you only have augmentics here, here and here but not here.

As a Techmarine player (and thus, with a bit of bias) I'd suggest a compromise.

The armor is pretty straightforward, as is the breathing thing. (The breathing is rendered pretty moot by the fact that there's no reason not to have that power armor buttoned up, and without the book here, I don't know that it covers being vacuum-hardened.) Where the point of contention comes in seems to be the mental resistance.

Here is my opinion, held over from years of various gaming systems: "mind control" and "compulsion" is a crutch mechanic. If the lynch-pin of an encounter is stripping control of the characters from the players, you may as well sit around with a few character sheets and have a 1-man game. That said, using that type of effect to degrade a character's abilities is a whole other thing. "The struggle to throw off the oppressive psychic yoke of your foe is draining and requires your full focus. Any other actions your undertake will have a circumstance penalty imposed." Again, that's my opinion, and I don't expect anyone to agree or care - I just want it out there as a point of reference for where I'm coming from here.

My suggestion for a compromise is that the Machine trait at least grant a degree of resistance to such powers. Why? A couple of reasons.

1.) Managing the type of equipment and implants in a Techmarine's body is a complex task. A great deal of it would have to be automated, with buffers and failsafes abounding between mind and body. Not insurmountable, by any means, but depending on the level of mastery possessed by the opponent, it might interfere with whatever process occurs.

2.) The brain hasn't been replaced, but portions of it may have been. Other portions may have been 're-wired' to facilitate the implants. Effectively, it could potentially interfere as above. I think there is even a talent called "Liturgical Implant" or something like that, which grants some sort of mental fortitude based on having constant prayers running on a loop in your brain.

3.) Mechanicus are known to just plain think differently after they've been welded up.

All said and done, it boils down to this. A techmarine's brain is physiologically altered, mechanically augmented, and functionally different. None of these things would outright prevent a sufficiently determined psychic attack. They might, however, render the marine incompatible enough that the attempt fails, or that the aggressor has to tailor an attempt to that target specifically. (It strikes me as amusing that an Eldar psyker might get the equivalent of a Blue Screen of Death error when trying to control a techmarine, for some reason.)

Mechanically, I'd represent this with a bonus to resistance checks, depending on how swayed by this line of reasoning one might be. A "You know, that's probably what happens!" might be a +20 bonus, whereas a "I guess that might work, sometimes...maybe..." might only be a +10.

Anywho, my two cents worth... nothing more, nothing less.

I've had similar problems with a player who purchased the machine treat for his character. He assumed it would make his character effectively invincible. Everything was fine until his character developed the attitude of "yeah, but I'm a machine" and started acting like nothing could threaten him. That changed when Hereteks showed up armed with Texorcism Guns and the other players realized that his brain could be hacked and reprogrammed.

I understand a lot of the concerns that the group has, but I don't see why these minor bonuses are such a huge problem. If the player thinks he's a god, show him he's not. But why take advantages at all if you don't get anything from it? There are far better uses of XP than the machine trait if the DM just says "Well, I'm not going to give you anything." If I recall armor monger is the same cost, but double the benefit but for the other things.

The "big concern" is immunity to mind control. why is this such an epic gamebreaker? Do you, as a GM, REALLY have to mind control your entire party enough that somebody who's flat immune is truly horrifying?

The immunity to vacuum also doesn't really phase me, as space marines 1: have power armor, and 2: secrete anti-vaccum goo from their pores in an emergency.

Suffocation: You mean a +40 bonus with a re-roll versus immunity is so horrifying?

I understand the power creep fear, but none of these are world-shattering abilities.

I admit, my favorite responses are the "well, just insta-kill him with EMP weapons." When somebody has Artificer Armor, do you say they're impossible to hide because of all the gold trim, and every round in combat they get shot by tank-mounted lascannons from across the field? If not, don't be a **** here either. It's a random collection of minor bonuses to things space marines are already very good at., and an immunity to something that shouldn't pop up all the time. If you want an aura to affect everybody, either let the techmarine shine, or fill the air with Jell-o instead of psychic emanations. Make the same effect but for a different reason.

Correction, he gets a +50 bonus to breathing toxins. Forgot toughness bonus equals an extra +10 (I know RAW is "extra degree of success," but +10 makes more sense so that a Carnifex is capable of barely doing some things (flip a landraider) instead of no impact on chance of flipping a tank, but if he flips it, MAN)

As a GM, I haven't had any problems with the machine trait so far, neither in RT or DW.

I don't really see where a problem could lie. Immunity to vacuum is pretty negligable in the great scheme of things (though very cool from a character's pov) and immunity to mind control isn't exactly game breaking either.

Try throwing a horde of Dark Mechanicus hackers with high security trait at him and shut down his equipment and functions. If one was sufficient to make the Magos Locard (in the Chapter's Due) almost sweat, imagine what an army of them with dark scrap codes can do to him.

I empathize with the TS GM. Seems to me that when a player gets abusive with his abilities it really ruins the game for others. I've played in a campaign previously with three power gamers. My DM ended up trying to throw anti "X" ability units to counter them. Was really tiring for everyone.

I agree this talent is way to powerful for the cost. So here was my comprimise with my tech marine at the table. With TFIW talent there are 5 bonus's and 5 armor points; there are also 5 ranks of TFIW.

So What I did was tell the tech marine he got the armor point plus one of the abilites. So every time he takes TFIW he gains another armor point and another ability. Also notice Techies do not get a lot of chances to buy sound constitution so they do not have as many wounds as say an assault marine.

I've run a DW game with a techmarine possessing TFIW and unless mind-control is a prominent part of the campaign it isn't really a game-breaker.

What I have done however is give TFIW a Fellowship penalty : for every step of TFIW the marine gets a -5 Fel penalty as they become less human and more 'machine'.

However this Fel penalty becomes a bonus if the techmarine interacts with members of the Adeptus Mechanicus or the Iron Hands chapter.

We have a techmarine upgraded up the wazoo... and yes, he is functionally invulerable to bolters (Artificer armour, Bionics giving +1-2 TB everywhere, that +2 armour Techmarine ability and some The Flesh Is Weak). However, is by no means the most powerful member of the party. Now, he should be making use of his near invulnerability to light weapons more to use his reaction to smack things with his servo harness, but he is not that much of damage dealer, at least no more than anyone else in the party and I don't think the "immunity to mind-control effects" or whatever has even come up. The only person doing significant amounts of mind control is our Librarian (who recently started taking very powerful abilities after initially focusing on smacking things very hard... without his force sword).

Throw a plasma/melta gun into the opponents mix every now and again and you'll be fine. The Techmarine is granted some special abilities and some immunities, but that is kind of part of the point of the character. Its not like the things stop being a threat to the other players, so they still need to be overcome.

I can't find where the Flesh is Weak Talent first got introduced. It wasn't in the original Dark Heresy book. What was its first appearance in the Dark Heresy line? So far I can only find reference to it in Ascension, yet it seems to presume Tech Priests can get it earlier. It's just I am sure I remember something like that you only got the Machine Trait after taking 5 levels of it, yet none of the instances of it I can find make this statement.

Its first available to Magos in Ascension.

I think when they made The Flesh is Weak talent they were just looking at the Machine trait armor bonus. A Techmarine or what have you w/TFIW still has a brain or grey matter that can be affected with psychic powers. If not, the player is just playing as a Servator. Breathing is still need too. A Space Marine already has bonuses to resist breathing airborne toxins and can hold their breath for a while in a vacuum. The Mechanicus implant gives a further stat boost to that. I figure the machine replacement for the lungs still breath in air to oxygenate the blood (or its mechanical equivalent) for the brain. That's why there is still a chance to get poisoned or suffocate (eventually). A cyborg Space Marine doesn't need to stop breathing until he gets the Undying trait (which a Marine of the Iron Hands chapter gets at lv.7 if he has 6 or more cybernetic implants).

It's pretty clear that the RAI to The Flesh is Weak is that it gives AP and -maybe- immunity to cold, vac, etc for the body part replaced. Not everything else. The wording is incredibly inelegant and honestly I never would have though up the abuses posted in this thread, but apparently some players have!

My take is that you're not going to be immune to mental psychic attacks unless you have no organic brain left. And usually brain matter is the only part of a heavily-cyber'd Magos or Iron Hand remaining. And if TFIW gave psychic immunity, there certainly wouldn't be other individual Talents that specifically involve implants in the brain that make you more resistant to coercion and mind-altering effects.

#1 Space Marines have an inherent Psychic Resistance (+10)
#2 We've applied immunity to vacuum, cold and given another +10 to psychic resistance per rank of TFIW
#3 Do Techies gain an armor point to every location or only to the one where they have the cybernetic? Book says : Machines are also resilient to injury, having 1 to 5 Armour Points for each location. This number is indicated next to the trait. Just wanted some confirmation as you've all said and I agree, the wording is rather dodgy

#4 If you're having a problem with Techmarines/Forgemasters or PC's that have lost limbs or taken extensive damage enough to require a cybernetic replacement, I have a solution for you. In Nick Kyme's Tome of Fire series (currently a trilogy) it stars the Salamanders chapter. **SMALL SPOILER ALERT** In the 3rd book the Sala's homeworld of Nocture is attacked by the antagonist. The Salamanders primary outer defense is located upon the moon that orbits Nocturne, dubbed Prometheus. On it resides the massive anti-space craft cannon and Primarch's Relic known as Vulkan's Eye. The current Forge Master Argos is infected with a virus that was a trap upon a vessel they searched and found a clue that later leads them to another of Vulkan's Relics. Argos interfaced with the ships terminal to discern what happened to its crew and was infected in the first book. The events contained within the second book take place and the malicious code sits idle and waiting. In the 3rd book the virus comes to life, taking over Argos' motor functions and sitting him in the backseat of himself as he has to watch himself first attack his fellow Techmarine that was operating Vulkan's Eye at the time, nearly killing the Brother, and then firing the Eye at a near by asteroid that was filled with some element that when struck by the Eye's laser, exploded and cast out a magnetic wave that disabled their planetary defenses leaving the moon Prometheus and mother Nocturne vulnerable to attack and small invasion at the hands of Dark Eldar and the antagonists Dragon Warriors CSMs.

Infect them with rogue software that screws them over at some point or another. Give the Tech-Brother subtle hints, as to his infection throughout your campaign, and if he's still failed to recognize the threat, have him cause a setback or failed mission or critical campaign failure or something along those lines.

That was quite the spiel, hope you read it and use some of it against the Munchkins. I myself just made (another) Iron Hands techie and have been aware of such threats since we started our new campaign, however we are facing Nid's at the moment...

The Flesh is Weak first appeared in the Rogue Trader core book for the Explorator class. A PC Explorator in that campaign asked about the machine trait and I ruled that since he still had an organic mind and conciousness, that machine trait would not give him immunity to mind-influencing psychic effects. And by RAW it doesn't stop non-psychic mind-influencing such as scrap-code subversion or plain old social skills.

There was a techmarine PC in my previous Deathwatch campaign and yes, he took The Flesh is Weak and he was tough. Easily the most-damage resistant member of the killteam, between his techmarine and Dark Angel successor goodies. But he didn't have the raw damage dealing abilities, tactical flexibility or skillset of the other PCs. Same deal with Machine trait not including anti-psychic abilities.

It isn't psychic resistance, the end effect is described as immunity to MINOR psychic powers that effect the mind. There are some useful abilities in the Minor psychic power list that effect the mind, but any real threats to Astartes are not going to be throwing minor psychic powers.

And you've gained a vulnerability to jinx and machine effecting powers, haywire weapons and the occasional malicious code.

One thing that I do notice about Deathwatch is the staggering number of bonus's to a stat that can be gained from innumberable parts. One of these is messier Tech Marine. TFIW is an honest bonus, but what I do think seems to be the same bonus is the bonus TB gained from Cybernetics. I'd only allow the greater of the TB from the Cybernetic OR TFIW, having your robot arm replaced by another robot arm is not worth a cumulative advantage in IMHO.

I see TFIW as being reinforcement where cybernetic arms are replacement. You can always reinforce the replacement I think.

There is a game mechanic difference between the toughnes bonus you get from implants and an armour bonus from TFIW.

Nathiel said:

Yeah but I think his argument is that this combination is too good.