Heya all!

I understand that pistol class weapons are the only ones that can be fired by a Marine when he is engaged in melee combat. I need clarification on the following question: Can a Marine engaged in melee combat fire a semi-auto burst from his pistol, or only single shot? I seem to recall reading somewhere that he can only fire a single shot, but I can't find that rule anymore and now I'm not sure.

Thank you all for your help!

Hehateme said:

Officially, pistols can only fire one shot in melee. You can find that under the third bullet on page 140 of the core rulebook.

Personally, I house rule it so their ROF can be used as normal. You won't really see stronger pistols that can manage more than 2 or 3 shots, really, and it lets characters better at ranged combat have a fighting chance in melee. Melee weapons will still do more damage and have more to-hit bonuses since ranged weapons in melee aren't considered to be at Point Blank range.

Great thanx Brand. Wow, they really hid that little rule in an obsure spot, no wonder I couldn't find it again!

I think I'm going to go ahead and steal your houserule too, I see no reason why a pistol shouldn't be able to use its normal ROF in melee.

Brand is correct, the rules do state a pistol can be used with only single shots.

Keep in mind you can, in accordance with the rule, fire a single shot with as many melee attacks as you have. A marine with swift attack and two weapon wielder melee can fire a pistol twice and swing with his chainsword once. Or vice-versa.

Letting your players fire off bursts into melee would not be balanced. For one thing, your assault specialist would feel jipped as his tactical bretheren would be just as capable as he is early on and even later on once plasma pistols or other more dangerous pistols become available. Secondly, firing a weapon on semi-auto or full-auto is supposed to take your whole turns action to represent the concentration and control you need to do so. Whipping it out and firing it from the hip while 10 guys try to grab your arms, smack you upside your head, and rain blows down upon you isn't very realistic. The single shot is representative of snapping off a round in melee without taking the time to aim the weapon as you'd do if firing it normally.

If you are worried your non-melee players feel they suck in melee, well first tell them they should have rolled a melee character. What do they expect? Second you should inform them while they only have one attack they still get to make all the special attacks. An assault marine would have to give up all of his attacks to make the same special attacks. An assault marine would have to give up 2-4 attacks to attempt a takedown, but your tactical marine would only be giving up 1. But once that enemy is prone on the ground your assault marine is gonna have an easier time smacking him. This goes for all of the specials: stun, takedown, grapple, knockback, etc. and don't forget double team.

Always keep in mind, a kill-team should act like a team (revolutionary thought I know). Try to forment teamwork within your players, its the way space marines operate anyways.

herichimo said:

1. No, you can't. The book specifically says pistols still count as ranged weapons for all purposes including the application of Talents. Swift Attack (or Lightning Attack) is for melee attacks only, not ranged. Your two attacks would be with the Chainsword.

2. Even with allowing multiple shots, using a pistol in melee isn't as deadly as the guy running around with a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. Melee weapons will have more bonuses, higher overall damage, multiple rolls (so less likely to be dodged entirely by a single dodge roll), and the ability to block an enemy's attacks as benefits which make them better than a pistol, too. If you're looking for realism, you're definitely in the wrong game setting. And there is nothing in the book that says Standard Attacks are rushed shots while Semi- or Full-Auto are carefully aimed blasts. If you want to go by what's actually in the book, you'll have to use the Aim action to actually aim your fire precisely.

Ranged characters likely will have a hard time pulling off special maneuvers (especially since it takes only a successful Dodge test to leaving them grabbing air). Stun? -20 WS Test. Feint? Opposed WS. Knock-down? Your typical melee opponent will be as strong or stronger than the player, so the PC is as likely to find himself knocked down as he is to pull off the move successfully. A few moves will work sometimes, but that's certainly nothing you can rely on. Letting pistols make that extra attack or two just gives players a little more of a chance, and since you lose that +30 for range and need two degrees of success for an extra hit (which can then be dodged with only 1 degree of success on a Dodge test) it really isn't so unbalanced.

Two-weapon attacks with pistols are allowed as per clarification by Ross Watson to me in email (this has been posted before):

"Q: What actions can be done with pistols in close combat other than
Standard Attacks? Multiple Attack (if so only 2-handed attacks only
or does swift strike, etc also apply)? All-out attack? Guarded
attack? I am asking because page 240 indicates more than standard
attacks are possible.

A: Standard Attack (or as part of two-weapon fighting) only."

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yeah, that's what the book says. It's still not a great option for most, though, especially since that brings in an extra -10 penalty and it isn't very likely your average character will be running around with two pistols readily available (especially if he's toting around a Heavy Weapon as his primary weapon).

Brand, with your house rule on this topic, have you seen an imbalance with the Assault Marine in your group using a melee weapon in one hand while hosing down xenos with SA burst fire from the pistol in his other hand? I can kinda see that may cause an imbalance in the system.

Hehateme said:

Not at all. Before the AM in my group died, he much preferred using a Storm Shield in his other hand for it's field effects and help parrying (he liked using Thunder Hammers or Power Fists, which don't lend themselves to parrying much if at all).

There are a few things to remember. First, the AM likely won't have an awesome BS like, say, a Devastator. That makes hitting with more than one shot much more difficult. Firing on SA mode means he can't Aim for more bonuses to hit, either. Second, look at the actual pistol weapons available (note that I'm using the errata stats here).

Astartes Bolt Pistol. This is a decent pistol but really only shines with Specialty Ammo. Maximum 2 shots.

Astartes Plasma Pistol. Good damage and penetration, but it needs to be fired on Maximal mode to push it to the levels of your typical upper-level melee weapon. Doing so means it can only be fired every other round. Again, maximum 2 shots.

Barrage Plasma Pistol. Best ROF of all pistols. Still needs to be fired on Maximal to push it to melee-weapon levels of damage. Maximum 3 shots.

Astartes Infernus Pistol. Fantastically deadly, but it's limited to at most 1 shot and as such is prone to being easily dodged.

Conflagration Infernus Pistol: A slightly better version of the Astartes Infernus Pistol. Still has a maximum of 1 shot.

Astartes Hand Flamer. Good weapon for Hordes and in certain situations. Again, only 1 shot maximum.

Autopistol. Horribly nerfed with the errata. Poor damage, penetration, and ROF means it's never used by players. Only 2 shots maximum.

Laspistol. Same as the Autopistol except with an even worse ROF. Maximum 1 shot.

If an AM wants to up his damage, he'll likely go with one of the Melta or Plasma pistols. The Melta pistols can only be fired once, so the house rule doesn't affect them. The Barrage Plasma Pistol (BPP) is probably the best because it allows 3 shots on SA mode. Unless he is getting some nice Size modifiers (about the only bonuses your typical AM will get with ranged weapons) your average experienced AM is still only going to hit with 1, maybe 2 shots most of the time. The BPP fired on Maximal mode (limiting it to every other round for use) looks like this: 50m, S/3/-, 2d10 + 8 E, Pen 10. Firing on Maximal will also empty the clip if you use Semi-Auto, not good since it takes 3 Full rounds to reload. That's an average damage of about 19 with Pen 10 on every hit, 3 hits possible.

Compare that to your AM who decides to carry a second weapon to increase damage potential - say, a Power Fist to go along with his Thunder Hammer. He'll only get 1 attack with the PF, but even with a -10 penalty for dual-wielding an experienced AM is practically guaranteed to hit. The Rank 5 AM in my group had a Strength of 70+, so with armor his Strength Bonus for damage was 16. With the PF, that goes up to 23 because the SB is increased again. So, every time he hits (after swinging 3 times with the Thunder Hammer) he'll be doing 2d10 + 23 E, Pen 9. That averages out to around 34 damage at Pen 9.

Long story short, the BPP on Maximal has 1 point of Pen better at the cost of around 15 less damage. Against, say, a Tyranid Warrior, that's pretty significant since the BPP will average 9 damage per hit while the PF does 24. It also is nowhere near guaranteed to hit at all in the hands of an AM, while the Power Fist will almost never miss once the AM has a bit of XP under his belt. If you get lucky and hit will all 3 shots from the BPP, it will edge out the PF on damage (mostly thanks to an increased Righteous Fury chance) but that takes a very good roll which likely won't happen often. To add final insult to injury, the AM can grab the PF for 30 Requisition at the Distinguished Renown level but will have to spend 32 Requisition after reaching Famed for a BPP.

2 potential hits with a pistol = an extra hit in melee.

If your looking for realism... Hey this is an RPG with rules concerning movement, lifting, armor, etc. etc. etc. It might have some fantastical elements but it seems to me most of the stuff is pretty grounded in realism. (Hence why the rule makers specifically state in the rulebook why a character isn't able to fire bursts from pistols in melee.) Just because it has people shooting energy bolts out of their nostrils doesn't mean the designers ignored realism when building their game mechanics. (Flyer movement, fatigue when moving too fast, falling damage, ammo limitations, just a few examples of rules designed to be realistic.)

Seems to me you're saying, "everyone but my melee specialists suck in melee, so I'm trying to even them out." If your players all wanted to be awsome in melee they should have rolled melee specialists.

What was that old saying? Oh, "You can't have your cake and eat it too."

Of course its your game, do what you want. But part of the appeal of role playing games is embracing the differences in your characters, identifying how a character can grow and still be usefull in other situations they are not perfectly equipped to deal with.

herichimo said:

No. One guaranteed melee hit for massive damage is much, much, MUCH better than two possible pistol shots for mediocre damage. The only thing that even keeps the pistol in the same ballpark as the melee weapon is the chance (depending on the attack roll) for increased RF.

You might want to rethink your stance on some of those rules in terms of realism. Flyer movement is about as ridiculous as I've ever seen in an RPG and is never used by my group. FFG gives us rules to work with so we have a frame to build our worlds around and we're all on the same page, but it is in no way some sort of simulationist game that mirrors how a lot of things work in real life.

No, I'm saying everyone should have a fair shake and nobody (especially in this game) should feel useless in half of the fights that come along. Letting pistols be used at full ROF still doesn't put a ranged-centric character even close to what an AM, Genestealer, or other melee-based character can pull off. It just gives them a fighting chance and makes it so they aren't so helpless. That's not a bad thing.

Yes, I can. I bet everyone on here who has ever had cake has eaten it, too.

Differences like Chapter or Demeanor allow for good roleplaying. But no one likes playing a character that is literally useless half of the time.

Brand said:

If a player is useless half the time then that is a failing of the GM or a greedy player who thinks they need their hand in everyone elses piece of the pie. Either way it's not the systems fault.

For the record any non-melee specialist should be terrified of getting into melee with a Genestealer or other such specialized foe. Specialists are supposed to outclass non-specialists in their field.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Well, after all, Tactical Space Marines are supposed to be "well-rounded fighters and leaders" (from their description on DW rulebook). They should at least handle weak opponents in melee. Which is not the case, taking into account they can either disengage (leaving a free charge for the opponent's turn) or make a single shot (which can be easily dodged). I don't know, but I find odd that in my Kill Team the DA Devastator handles better in melee than me (Tactical Ultramarine), as he can parry every attack if he really is in danger.

Maybe it is not a problem of the engagement rules, but they sure don't help.

Jeler said:

Tacs can make decent melee fighters eventually if built that way. They won't be the best, as the available melee Talents are limited, but the prices for raising melee stats like WS and Str are reasonable. With a few elite advances thrown in, you can have a solid melee fighter. If you're training your leadership abilities and Fellowship at all, you'll have the advantage of being the clear leader. All those extra points of Cohesion can be a game changer, especially with certain Squad Mode Abilities like Lead by Example. Fellowship of 50 or so? That's a nice +5 to all tests. Pick yourself and you can re-roll one test each round, too, which saves on spending Fate Points to re-roll missed parries. That's not too shabby.

Keep in mind that Dev has to spend a Fate Point every time he wants multiple parries. If you want the same benefits, start training with the guy and see how cheaply your GM will let you take Stalwart Defense. Just be glad the guy doesn't have Counter Attack, too, because then he'd really be outshining everyone at melee. Stalwart Defense + Counter Attack is disgustingly powerful, even with the Dev's lower Weapon Skill.