that is the question.

what to choose? usualy playing only with my wife... so 2 players.

which is more time consuming, ..preparations, ...expansions, mistake-wise and errata, randomness, future of both titles (I dont want to buy it and hear that second edition will be out - see Descent 2.

all comments welcomed to make a choice

skolo said:

Well i have both games and like playing both, I love using ToI to make my own scenarios and like the deeper rules, but to address your points:

Time consuming- ToI i find will take longer to play 2 - 2.5 hours seems an average (although scenarios range in size which effects length of play) memoir base game will play in 30 - 60 mins a game.

Preparations - ToI will normally take longer to set up but if you have your stuff arranged in storage containers (tackle/craft boxes ) this will speed things up. I find the break through version of memoir take about the same time as Toi.

Expansions - Memoir 44 has alot of stuff out for it with around 15? products that can be added to the base game ToI has 5 (inculding the updated versions of the boards that come in the basegame)

Mistake-wise and errata - Well both games have mistakes but ToI seems to have alot more careless errors. I have found that the mistake are very quickly cleared up with memoir 44. ToI's fury of the bear expansion desperatly needs to be cleared up as you can tell if you have been reading other posts.

anyway I have to stop here dinner on the table, but I will just say i started with memoir then got Toi and love playing both although memoir probably hits the table more as it is not as complex and easy to teach new players. Anyway im sure others can give u a bit more insight into both as im limited on time to explaine.

Relative to other tactical games that have some complexity, like Panzergrenadier, Fighting Formations, Conflict of Heroes,I would say that, TOI is the best overall combination of minatures and mid level complexity, while avoiding becoming a mathematicians matrix, or methodical calculation game. You get a really excellent base set of plastic pieces with the base TOI game, and later, you can substitute more detailed painted 144 scale models You can also paint the TOI plastic units, and they look really good:

Memoir 44 is simple to learn, play and store all in a more transportable box. It is a card driven game, so you can much easier rationalize your losses due to luck of the draw. It is easy to set up and play a scenario in about half an hour. The only potential problem is that all the tiles are individual, and have a bad habit of getting disrupted by pets, and children. And the infantry figures are also individual and can be lost easily. You can remedy this problem by

A, Setting up board in a room with door that cat, dog, or children do not know how to open.

B. To combat your own clumsyness, make magnetic bases that the pieces can be aligned on, and store all of them in a box already on their bases.

.

hehe, big thanks to both of you.

I`m still discovering Battlelore and Battles of Westeros so I got plenty to be playing with, but as guy who painted a lot of WW2 stuff in youth I`m kind of ...well, pushed in that direction. I really love those kind of games.

What I`m afraid of is that "luck" in cards you need to have playing Battlelore and Memoir (same rules). I guess there is more strategy in ToI right?
I need to check the rules.

anyway, thanks!

skolo said:

Well, I struggled with that same question, so my solution was to buy them both, and I have never regretted it.

I don't have MM44 but I do have ToI.

It really depends on what your wife likes (since you'll play the wargame with her the most).

ToI takes the longest in both prep and play.

Strategy in ToI is not dependent on the cards as they are in MM44. Nothing is hidden in ToI. Your opponent has access to all the information that you have so it really comes down to figuring out your opponent's moves (similar to chess in that you and your opponent have equal access to all the information on the table)..

I would say there is probably a bit more strategy in ToI, but when i first bought Memoir i was a bit hesitant at first as i thought it was going to be too simple and too much luck, but to my plesent suprise you do need to have a plan/strategy (have found the player who is working on a strategy vs the player with no real plan tends to win more often) Even though memoir is driven by cards, i find it a good abstract way dealing with problems the command faces on the battlefeild (and adds another issue you need to include in your planning). the scale of memoir seems to be a larger picture of the battle (even though it can vary) ToI fouces on a more zoomed in part of the battle.

I find I can get more people playing memoir due to it ease to teach and simple rules set. with ToI the only people who play with me are people who have an interest in ww2 and have played war games before. I have played memoir with my girlfriend but there is no way she will try ToI.

I like both games as much as each other, like what someone said above get both (only if you know of ppl who will play ToI with you, although memoir is a good way to suck ppl in then introduce them to ToI as there are a couple of good intro scenarios)

I decided to start with M44. We`ll see how it goes and flows.

thanks for all your replies

That is how i Started too, memoir is a great game (I still play it lots) and you will find if you end up liking it and getting some expansions they add some more depth to the game aswell. I bought ToI a few months later (even before i had anyone to play the game, but have one other die hard fan and a couple of casual players for it now) I really like both systems as they bring the same period (than im interested in) to the table but in differnt ways.

I have all the expansions for memoir and ToI and am glad that i have them all, these would be the 2 games i play most often.

There are a few rule modifications which could improve TOI game play (IMO)., giving it some of the unpredictable quality of M44 game play.Also, a few rules are needed for AT gun transportation.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. Roll for initiative, with +1/objective hex controlled. The roll is made after every cycle of 2 action phases, rather than just at the beginning of each round. Thus, intiative could change back and forth several times in the same round.

2. Make units roll either a casuality roll (squads) or a track/engine damage roll (vehicles) if they use their maximum movement pts. The effect of this will be to slow down units slightly in general by one hex, which IMO, will balance out the fire vs movement ratio better., but it still allows to use the movement factor as printed in stats sheets, at the risk of injury or damage to the unit.

3. Repairing vehicles: An Engineer squad, or a Recovery vehicle may repair a damaged vehicle, reducing its damage level by 1 if in same or adjacent hex. One action is required. Recovery vehicle may opt to tow the damaged vehicle to one adjacent hex before implementing repairs, as part of its action.

4. Wreckage model or wreckage counter (I use those destroyed bldg counters) is placed in hex where a tank is destroyed. Wrecks count as one heavy vehicle for stacking, but only one wreckage marker is placed in a hex, regardless of how many vehicles have been destroyed. A wreck acts like a block, so another vehicle must spend 2 pts additional to move into wreck hex. A wreck give units a +1 defense roll in addition to other terrain effects.

5. Halftracks and Trucks may tow AT guns, along with one squad (HT) or 2 squads loaded(truck).

VolksCamper said:

I agree with points 4 & 5 as i have already made my own house rules for some of my scenarios with towing AT guns. And i have always liked the idea of vehicles not leaving the board when destoryed and providing cover and being a hinderance in some respects.

Point 1 i think takes away some decision making in the game, as I often find myself having to decide how my command is going to be spent. Do i put it aside and spend it on some cards that would come in handy or do i need to try and keep to initative. with the way you propose this just frees up all your command to be spent on cards (IMO this would make this part of the game boring, as the desion making has gone)

Ponit 2 i don't see the theory behind this at all, the movement points are what the units are capable of doing in the time frame, maybe some certain types of terrain could have more of an effect on units entering but not taking casualities for jusy moving..

I have thought about point 3 but in reality to repair a tank even with minor damage could take hours, and if it were heavily damaged, days! So i have not worried about trying to house rule here as most repairs took place after the battle when the tanks could be recovered. the time frame that actions take place in don't really make repairing tanks realistic.

I have found that the rule changes that I make are scenario spesific (making my own operations cards or sceanrio special rules) I like to try and stay with the ToI base rules. but if im working on a scenario where I want to really highlight a certain tactic or event that happend I will add a custom operations card most of the time. I dont really like the idea of chaging a rule that is accross the whole game, as this may change how all the scenarios play out that have been made.(and the scenaios were made with the Toi base rules in mind)

skolo said:

If you want to check out memoir 44 go to memoir44.com and try the free online version. Tide of iron I personaly like better although it is more complicated...

RAF1945 said:

They need to make an online version of Tide of Iron. and include rule for transportation for AT guns, and modified Combined Fire or +1 or +2 / vehicle. At least make some kind of way to post moves on this forum, as I could surely leave my board set up and make moves by posting image if they had a suitable easy to use editor.