Hi,

just a quick query about tyranid melee weapons here, the "optional" weapon update went a long way towards fixing tyranid shooting but the melee options for the big bugs still feel underwhelming.

The problem seems to rest with the base weapon profile, it's fine for the little guys, a hormagaunt scything talon doesn't seem to be a problem, about as lethal as a guy with a sword, which feels fine.

Tyranid warriors don't feel hugely elite when using the CC options though and Carnifexes and Tyrants are stuck doing about as much damage with less pen than am mid level assault marine, (somewhere around 1d10 + 23 ish), which fails to support there role as terrifying melee opponents and completley neuters them versus vehicles.

Compared to the dreadnaught CC weapon or the Greater daemons attacks the issue really becomes clear.

Has anyone had any luck or thoughts about a fix for this, I'm toying with an extra d10 for every 2 size grades but was wondering if anyone had any other ideas?

I BELIEVE this works out to give a Carnifex a fair chance of boxing with a Dreadnought. Haven't had to USE these rules yet, however, just wrote them ahead of time.

For Scything Talons and Rending Claws, I add +1 Pen for each size the creature is above Average, and +1D10 damage for every size the creature is above Enormous.

i.e. a Carnifex deals 2D10+23 at PEN 6. As is, he'd need to roll a 9 to hurt a Dreadnought period, but can deal a max of 12 damage (vs the Dread's integrity of 35). The Dreadnought always deals at least 4 points of damage, and can max out at 22 (vs the Carnifex's 100 wounds). If they each roll max with no parrying or what not whatsoever, in a one-hit a round slugfest in which all hits connect, the Carnifex wins, but in reality, the Dreadnought is bound to have higher combat skills, and the possibility for Killing Strike, Lightning attack, and other things that give it an edge.

Ideally, this properly models the Carnifex's savage, pure strength, and the Dreadnought's skill, and should mostly favor the Dreadnought, but still give the Carnifex a fair shot.

Then you've got an Ironclad dreadnought, which requires a Carnifex to roll a 15 to do damage from the front, but Ironclads are sort of meant for this kind of thing.

Unfortunately, it's still completely impossible for a Carnifex to hurt a Land Raider under these rules (he'd have to roll a mystical 21), but fluff-wise Land Raiders are absolutely redonkulous, so have him bio-plasma through a vision slit or try and turn it over or something.

With a unatural strenght x3 the carnifex has all his strenght rolls made 3 level easier than average roll. So for my part if tear off the side of a landraider is a -60 action then it became -30.

Then with a strenght of more than 70 there is always 40% chance for the carnifex to breach the hull, and then fire bioplasma inside the vehicule.

Thanks Captain Ventris, I'll give this a shot and we'll see how it goes.

I'm not too sure about the ripping armour off the side idea though by thebigjul, it seems like a bit of a hack to bypass the armour and structure rules compleley plus it open to abuse by strong marines as well, particularly using the feat of strength solo ability where they could quite easily be stronger than the carnifex anyway.

Brother strong marines normal Str = 60 (80) with unnatural 2 so with the -60 starting mod, gets an effective -50 meaning 30% chance of success

Feat str gives at least another grade of unnatural getting to the 40% the carnifex had and maybe even more if theres a percentage boost included, i can't remember and I don't have my book here to check but I don't think marines are really intended to be ripping open tanks with your power armoured hands even in Deathwatch

I'm not too sure about the ripping armour off the side idea though by thebigjul, it seems like a bit of a hack to bypass the armour and structure rules compleley plus it open to abuse by strong marines as well, particularly using the feat of strength solo ability where they could quite easily be stronger than the carnifex anyway.

Brother strong marines normal Str = 60 (80) with unnatural 2 so with the -60 starting mod, gets an effective -50 meaning 30% chance of success

Feat str gives at least another grade of unnatural getting to the 40% the carnifex had and maybe even more if theres a percentage boost included, i can't remember and I don't have my book here to check but I don't think marines are really intended to be ripping open tanks with your power armoured hands even in Deathwatch

In effect it bypass the rules of armour and structures but in game it demand a full action to complete and let the Por NPC without any kind of defence. If you are ripping a tank or anything else, you are indeed ripping it and not focus on the combat around you so for my player no dodge or parry, they are count as unaware for the purpose of attack targeting them (+30 to WS or BS). then they are also at point blank for the weapon of the vehicule they are attacking so more or less +60% chance of hitting the SM. then and I should have told it sooner, I ask for DoS equal to the tens digit of the vehicule armor round up. So a chimera need 3 DoS and the front armor of a leman russ 5, the action can be taken from round to round to get the DoS.

And yes, your SM are made to rip tank with bare hand, when you can without hesitation wear 2500kg, lift almost 5000kg and push almost 10000kg, then yes indeed you can take armour plating with bare hand and try to make them fly.

I have yet to use monstrous creatures yet but I was thinking of houseruling a "monstrous creature" trait rule were you add the creature's strength bonus to its melee Pen. Would make them real powerhouses in close combat.

I have yet to use monstrous creatures yet but I was thinking of houseruling a "monstrous creature" trait rule were you add the creature's strength bonus to its melee Pen. Would make them real powerhouses in close combat.

i agree with this since it is said in the carifex intro that it was designed to destroy vehichles as a powerhouse battering ram for the tyranids.Besides we need the bigger creatures to do impressive damage in melee against smaller targets, just make the targets harder to hit.