Anyone else concerned about consecrated scrolls?

By KommissarK, in Dark Heresy Gamemasters

As per the title, I was just looking through Daemon Hunter, and thought these items seemed particularly useful, especially given their cost/availability. Basically, pack a few of these, and its a fairly solid "get out of jail free" card (or scroll I guess). And late game, they're so piss cheap that a psyker is effectively unable to trigger perils, with the amount of abilities they have to help mitigate that risk.

Or am I not seeing that they somehow become useless late game?

Anyway, just seems like they remove a bit of the fear/uncertainty from the game. You know, really hurting the themes of DH. Now, for the Daemon Hunter style campaign, I certainly see them as being useful, but perhaps it should be more limited (say have it negate any perils effects that involve daemons).

KommissarK said:

As per the title, I was just looking through Daemon Hunter, and thought these items seemed particularly useful, especially given their cost/availability. Basically, pack a few of these, and its a fairly solid "get out of jail free" card (or scroll I guess). And late game, they're so piss cheap that a psyker is effectively unable to trigger perils, with the amount of abilities they have to help mitigate that risk.

Or am I not seeing that they somehow become useless late game?

Anyway, just seems like they remove a bit of the fear/uncertainty from the game. You know, really hurting the themes of DH. Now, for the Daemon Hunter style campaign, I certainly see them as being useful, but perhaps it should be more limited (say have it negate any perils effects that involve daemons).





Scrolls require time and devotion

If you've concerns regarding the item in question, deny the use of them. You're the GM, you can do as you please.

Certainly I recognize that as a GM I am well within my rights to deny the usage of an item, I just would like to properly examine the balance of something before I just outright deny it. Perhaps its price/availibility could be tweaked. Perhaps the time needed to prepare it could be more clearly defined.

All I'm really trying to get here is a discussion on if people think this item alters the game in a negative way or not. Or prove that it is nowhere near as bad as it reads.

What stops a Primaris psyker from using influence to get an untold number of these at the start of an ascension level game? Justifying that they were made during his ascension package. All of a sudden perils goes from highly unlikely to statistical impossibility.

Or Grey Knights, they can pretty much requisition whatever they want, so all of a sudden they have free access to never have perils, which is already kind of unlikely for them.

Certainly, the GM can say no, but as I said earlier, I prefer to do the homework ahead of time to make an "informed no," instead of an "uninformed no."

I do not have the Daemon Hunter book yet, which is sad becuase =I= really want it, cures you slow contract season!

But anyway, it's easier to limit the number he can have at the beginning and very easy to limit the availability during game. I've had issues with items like this in other games, and occasionally in DH. What I have done in the past is limit the number at the beginning and see how he uses them, if they seem overly powerful in his hands I make it very difficult to get more during game and in downtime set a max that is available to him. If they do not seem overly powerful becuase of some little rule that has more impact than it seems, like taking a full turn to use, I will let up on the restrictions.

From the little bit I know of them, I'd say no more than 3 or 5 to start with. See how they are used and make an informed decision.

I would imagine the Scrolls being used excessively in their current state, but i think there are rules in some of the other books concerning warp tainted areas that would increase the chances of perils being invoked.

Otherwise you could simply make it a house rule that locations with a hig concentration of warp energies (like a place of summoning) increases all rolls on Psychic Phenomena table by +10/20 or more if thats more to your liking.

Another way to limit the use of them would be to set a time it would take to use the Scrolls fx. a half action to use.

You could always put a corruption limit on them. Say if the Acolyte has more than 20CP they don't work or are less likely to work.

not having seen daemon hunter yet, I've just graduated from uni and my finances are screwed, I don't know their particular mechanics.

Basically, its a "oh, did you trigger Perils of the Warp? Well ok, since you have a consecrated scroll on you, that scroll goes 'poof', and you get to roll on the phenomena table again." With a psykers other mitigation techniques, it basically lowers the chances of anything bad ever happening quite significantly.

And they're cheap, and relatively available.

Note that this is just a theoretical question of mine, my actual DH game ended a few weeks back (a fairly long term social/political intrigue game, that eventually turned into a fun showdown between the intrepid acolytes, and a "rogue" rogue trader, whose ancestors at one point had actually acquired the armour and weapons of a Custodes (and I'm talkin the gold/black power armour, Guardian halberd or whatever its called), and various things involving the Tyrant Star).

hmmm. it does seem to lessen that risk quite a bit.

If it ever comes up in my game I'd make them very rare, or just rare if the character has peer (Ecclesiarchy), and put a maximum corruption point cap on 'em. Maybe 20's too harsh seeing as Psykers seem to get a bit more corruption than anybody else but 30-40 wouldn't be too bad.

I would not worry about a Primaris not getting phenomena, considering he can just use his powers Fettered and never get them by default. Also, a Psyker gets Favoured By The Warp, and gets a re-roll as well. I wouldn't worry too much, but I have a suspicion (I don't have daemon hunters yet so it's pure speculation) that it's more an item a Psyker prepares himself, since every Psyker perceives the Warp differently. Worst case, implement that yourself. It's a sacred item that takes time, devotion and respect, not knives you're mass-producing as fast as possible.

The important balance factor here is that the core game rules do not allow a re-roll of a re-roll, so what you have here is essentially a really fancy and cool "fluff" item that would be a common tool in a Daemonhunter's arsenal. This item is of limited value to a full-on Primaris Psyker because of the fettered/unfettered/push rules as well as the very high probability that the player bought Favoured By The Warp. Where this item comes into it's own is if the Inquisitor, Interrogator or Sage (via Adept) happens to be a psyker! Ascension/RT/DW RAW grants use of the fettered/unfettered/push to Astropaths, Primaris Psykers and Astartes Librarians, but NOT to other psykers. If their origin career was Imperial Psyker then they probably have Favoured By The Warp, but if they started out as something else and then picked up their "gift" sometime along the way then they might not have EITHER tool at their disposal to mitigate Warp backlashes. In the most recent session of my game two Primaris Psykers managed to generate SIX rolls on the charts in a single turn, so I still have faith that Obama, Herald of Tzeentch will reap misfortune on any wytches that lack a Dark Pact. demonio.gif

This item is in the Daemonhunters book for a reason and is very labour intensive to make by specially trained and sanctioned artisans (likely FAITHFUL artisans!), so requiring the character to have some amount of positive influence with the Ordo Malleus or Grey Knights (good luck!) and limiting how many scrolls they can posess is quite reasonable. After all, selfish hoarding of such prescious and useful tools of the righteous denies resources to other Imperial agents in need, which is clearly a sinful act. A real-world example of something of similar nature (from a crafting perspective) would be the absolute degree of perfection required to make Torah scrolls. Of note, Blood of Martyrs has NO equivalent item! This is also not an error IMO. As a whole the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy take a rather dim view of wytchcraft and Warpcraft and thus lack the institutional scholarship to produce such items in any appreciable number. Quite simply the rigid dogma that so effectively shields them from their chosen foes also precludes the level of finesse and understanding of the Warp that such items require for proper construction and consecration. The Hereticus CAGE or EXECUTE their foes. The Malleus BANISH or SMITE their foes. They are on the same side (mostly) but their methodologies and needs are very different.

ZillaPrime said:

The important balance factor here is that the core game rules do not allow a re-roll of a re-roll

Really? Where did you get that from? At the moment, some of my players are running around with re-rolls on every fear test (1 from Unshakable Faith, 1 from the clerics Iron Discipline). I did think about not allowing it, but they still get scared like little kittens when the fear 3-4 things show up.

Certainly the rules specify when using a fate point re-roll that the re-roll is final but it is a common and useful interpretation to assume that the system prohibits additional re-rolls from any source past the first re-roll. Otherwise the tendency is to seek out so many overlapping safety nets that everything gets bogged down by constant re-rolling. Also, it's lame. I restrict my DW players to a single re-roll regardless of source. It saves them from using fate points on things where they have a re-roll from a different source, and saves me from them using a squad ability, a per session ability, wargear, a talent, a then a fate point all on the same crucial roll if they want. Too many re-rolls = no significant chance of misfortune = not terribly grimdark or dangerous feeling = not as fun.

Indeed. Plus there are several references to talents and weapon qualities that grant re-rolls not being allowed re-re-rolls by any means. If your players are desperate enough and the re-roll was insufficient you can always get another fate point out of them for the quality improvement aspect. Popping an additional FP after the re-roll for the +1/+2 degree(s) of success is still allowable. And if they really want it that bad, heck, it is their fate point to spend as they see fit.

ZillaPrime said:

Ascension/RT/DW RAW grants use of the fettered/unfettered/push to Astropaths, Primaris Psykers and Astartes Librarians, but NOT to other psykers. If their origin career was Imperial Psyker then they probably have Favoured By The Warp, but if they started out as something else and then picked up their "gift" sometime along the way then they might not have EITHER tool at their disposal to mitigate Warp backlashes.

We had a discussion about who gets fettered/push rules once they hit Ascensionin my group, and ended up getting a official reply from FFG as we couldnt come to an agreement internally in our group.

Inquisitors and Interrogators get it, too, if they come from the Imperial Psyker path. Once an Imperial Psyker hits Ascension he learns the fettered/push usage of his Powers. It is not path-specific on which the character then treads for further levels.

P.S.

To make it double clear, Sages, Sorcererors and Mutants with Powers are not of high enough training, and so dont get fettered/push. Only the "professional" plyers in the art of warp-using, so to say.

Nightsorrow said:

ZillaPrime said:

The important balance factor here is that the core game rules do not allow a re-roll of a re-roll

Really? Where did you get that from? At the moment, some of my players are running around with re-rolls on every fear test (1 from Unshakable Faith, 1 from the clerics Iron Discipline). I did think about not allowing it, but they still get scared like little kittens when the fear 3-4 things show up.

If it helps you any, I once contacted the developers concerning the Storm Trooper's Field Command special ability. Depending on how you interpret it, you may come to the conclusion that allies affected by the special ability could keep re-rolling until they succeed. The reply I got back was that you may only re-roll a roll onc e , and the second result stands.

So I finally have the Daemon Hunter book and I see no problem with the Consecrated Scrolls. They give a reroll to the Psychic Phenomena table, they do not stop it and anytime you reroll there is always the chance that you will roll worse. The only time I see someone using this is when they roll +75 and get a Perils of the Warp, and rerolling still gives them a 25% chance of getting it again. And if someone uses one becuase they do not like their result on the PP table there is again a chance that they will do worse and actually get a Perils roll. Bad **** will still happen, I see no way to avoid it with the scrolls, all they do is give you a chance of it not being as bad. As an example, a player of mine rolled a PP that caused everyone to lift off the ground, rolled a 10 for the height and nearly killed 2 of the other players. Another time a player rolled for the one that frosts everything, one of the players fell off the edge of the scaffold and again almost died from the fall, PP can be just as dangerous as Perils, and since the scroll only lets you reroll I dont see it as a way to avoid bad ****, just reduce the chances.