N0-1_H3r3 said:

It would be interesting for a short campaign, to play a group of assassins sent as an Execution Force, but for that we'd really need to have rules for most or all of the other 5 Clades.

(yeah, I read Nemesis a while back)

SPOILERS *** SPOILERS *** SPOILERS****

That book show how bad it is to have more than 1 assassin working on the same job. Oh, yes and get the Sniper who can't distinguish a Primarch from a Marine a pair of glasses...

Didn't like the depiction of that book of assassins, not at all. It read like an assassin social series... Yes, they are assassins, yes they where mindwiped, yes they are tottay pro but This is the exception... and this, and this, and that....

I thought the... Callidus(? the shape changer) was quite well done. The rest... didn't quite give the image I think of when I think of Temple Assassins. The... why have I forgotten all the names... the sniper one... was just not done right at all. They should basically be completely asocial, but the character in there was not only social, but the leader. Psychotic killer one was... well not psychotic enough. They shouldn't be able to exist as talking individuals. They are killing machines pure and simple.

Which would make them worse killers, not better ones.

The Imperium doesn't need another automaton that follows orders, it needs a cunning, cold blooded killer. Consider that a sniper, any sniper who is to work in an urban environment, is going to interact with people eventually because it's impossible to avoid it when everyone is surrounding you, and leaving a trail of bodies behind you is far from discreet.

Someone who " can't exist as a talking individual " can't infiltrate, hell being able to understand basic human mores would screw up any chances of blending in to a population.

You send five of your robots after me, and I'll send five people after you, and we'll see who's dead first.

Because the only ones that should really be a mindless killing machine are the Eversor (and it's rather clear that the one in question was only held in check because of how tempting the reward was, not to mention that he had been deliberately 'brought down' from the normal state they're in outside of cryo.

Frankly, it's not that the Assassins were that lacklustre, it's just that you have the wrong expectations.

Even so, they are still single operatives, not party members.

If you want a social guardsman, take the...what the hell! Guardsmen are trained to be killing machines, not commissaries or commanders, if a player want become a Storm Trooper is because he want shoot to heretics, if the Vindicare steals his role, this is not fun.
You are working for Inquisition, if you want an ascended social guardsman, take the Interrogator or the Inquisitor.

borithan said:

Battlefield assassins like culexus and evesor who are more Rambo-esque super soldiers than assassins asside, why should Temple Assassins be totally asocial?

Indoctrination and mind wiping is not the same as deletion of personality and social capacity

The assassins from the Callidus, Vindicare and Venenum Temples are the Imperium's best best weapons yes, but as their methods typically involve getting to the enemy without being detected they need more than killing skills and infiltration is more than just hiding in some bushes as an enemy patrol walks past.

They have to be able to pass themselves off as a normal person when in amongst the general populus and talk their way into places where they cant sneak in.

I would put forward that far from being ascocial the majority of temple assassins would in fact be some of the most accomplished social operatives in the Imperium tanks to their unparralled training.

Vindicare and any other Temple Assassin are reallyy not suitable for PC roles in DH games, they are by the fluff better than marines, they are the 1 in a 1,000,000,000,000,000 individuals given the training to make them far surpass humanity in every way to achieve one goal, death of the enemies of the Imperium. They are meant to be the Imperium's super heroes in a way, but that is not a good thing for a game when everybody else is just a run of the mill mortal doing their best to do the job in front of them.

Banjulhu said:

The Evesor, rather than being a raging psychopath that will attack the nearest thing as soon they are broken out of their tube, are instead a raging psychopath with a hair trigger. They are still temple assassins and their plan isn't to cut a swath of murder from where ever they are dropped on the planet to their target. In stead it still starts with sneaking as close to the enemy as possible, THEN pumping the combat drugs and cutting a bloody path to their target. A plan that works well.

Other than Callidus I wouldn't call them that social, at best they'd be trained to pass as normal for the situation environment they are in (not being able to be discrete enough to get to the target on public space travel would be crippling, for instance) but super-spy levels of blagging I've never heard outside of the Callidus. After all, where could they not sneak into (in the Vindicares where could they not sneak to within a mile of)?

If they were going to be included I would have liked some better, more specific rules, hypno - indoctrination, improved backgrounds from being vat grown super assassins. I don't in theory think they are too powerful, this is a game where you can play full inquisitors etc and lets face it, for power Terminatus trumps all, but the background fluff doesn't really fit.

Face Eater said:

Exactly. The issue isn't so much that the Vindicare was included, it's that it was the only Officio Assasin included and it made some other classes feel defunct. I think everyone can agree we would rather have seen an Officio expansion book that introduce the full range of assasins at their proper power level, more like how Grey Knights and (the revised) Sisters of Battle have been dealt with in Daemon hunter and Blood of Martyrs respectively.

Blood Pact said:

Calexus... Ach... can't remember the names. The ani psyker ones are 1) created for one purpose only: the extermination of psykers and 2) are blanks, whose presence alone have been long established to be utterly repulsive to others at a core level and so are going to find social infiltration nigh on impossible (again, stealthing is still an important option).

Eversors... are as subtle as hurling a train through someone's window, and are turned into vicious killing machines by the conditioning and the drugs used on them. 'Nuff said.

Callidus, yes, they are infiltrators (with the added bonus of being shape changers to a degree). And yes, they would have to have extensive social skills for this purpose, but they are the only ones.

Also, when I mean killing machines I do not mean just kills everything around them for the sake of it (Eversors aside), I mean that they don't really have anything else to them but their job. They are cold blooded killers (and cunning, within their particular specialities), but take them to a wining and dining session and they would cause all end of insult as they would be completely unaware of the etiquette (again, Caliidus aside). Trying to have an interesting conversation would be next to pointless, as they would either ignore you or just talk endlessly about their job (and knowing how unpleasant it is we can guess it wouldn't be most people's idea of proper dinner conversation. They would just not understand the point of the whole event.

Until Nemesis and Dark Heresy, as far as I can remember Temple Assassins were taken from birth for their job (or at least at a very young age). They were not the pick of the "normal" assassin crop, they were something distinct and separate, and their entire lives were dedicated to preparing them for being what they were (peerless sniper, peerless social infiltrator, psyker killer and rampaging death machine). Only one of these required social skills.

I can see why Vindicare would be selected later on, though. You know, to chose people who actually have skills at shooting So, why not, but I agree, a Vindicare doesn't do "social" infiltration. Eventually stealth, but the whole point of being a super duper mega extra ultra sniper is not having to get close to the target...

And yeah, Eversor are nuts, and Culexus are blanks.

Stormast said:

The Culexus have a unique advantage, though - the combination of their potency as Untouchables and the technology they employ to focus and enhance that abhorrent nature, most non-Psykers are psychologically incapable of perceiving a Culexus, as their minds disbelieve their senses when attempting to look upon a Culexus (because nothing like that can possibly exist, so it's just the senses playing tricks). A non-Psyker may feel a shiver down his spine or another generally unpleasant feeling in proximity, but his mind won't let him acknowledge its source. A Psyker can look upon a Culexus and perceive it without difficulty, but really wishes he couldn't... a Psyker's mind is too aware to simply disregard the endless void within the assassin (their minds know that such things can and do exist, and can't possibly ignore them).

Agreed. But anyway, Culexus are a very special case, and shouldn't be playable in DH ^^

But I personally wonder why the Callidus wasn't. It's just as game breaking as the Vindicare ("Enemy base? No problem! Secret cult? No sweat!"), but it's funnier to play. And less broken in combat, maybe :]

And I'd say it's fairly possible to "become" a Callidus later on in your life, much for the same reasons as the Vindicare, whereas to be a good Eversor you have to be drugged and trained for much much longer.

The group I run for is an ascended Malleus team and Stormtrooper is proving to be a fairly popular option for the players. One very important detail no one has mentioned yet about carapace armour is that it does NOT penalize your stealth skills, while any suit of power armour sucks an inherent penalty to stealth, but in the case of heavy p.a. also has a scale penalty (since it makes the wearer count as hulking). Terminator armour adds an additional Agility penalty to the wearer and denies the wearer use of their Dodge skill when worn. Likewise, if I am a Stormtrooper deploying in my combat kit then I sure as HELL am not deploying with merely a hellgun and carapace armour! These are simply the bedrock foundations of their general badassery. It is likely (and hopeful!) that after playing a character all the way to Ascension level that the aspiring Stromtrooper has developed certain preferances and quirks in their style of fighting and wargear selection, and their all-around combat versatility means that no matter what the galaxy throws at my team, I am reasonably able to react in force to the threat. Adding tearing to a pen 7 basic weapon is simply brutal, and the stormtrooper's trusty hellgun is now statistically more powerful and reliable than a bolter. If I need some variety I add an exterminator or AGL to my rails. Special mission or target? No problem! A combi-hellgun is going to be a bit heavy and unsubtle, but it is very versatile and you don't have to stow your rifle and ready your backup weapon, just toggle the selector switch and unleash the melty goodness that is your other weapons system! Bad guys brought some autocannon? Sneak up on their position, kill off the crew and "repurpose" that cannon! Yeah, chances are good that you are trained to crew that weapon... And chances are VERY good that no one else on your team (except maybe an Arbitrator) is likely to have this training. Plus any good elite soldier will tell you that a big part of mission success is pre-planning, training and preparation, so of course you suplement your basic wargear with an auspex, chameleoline cloak, 3 stummers in one of your cargo pockets, a back up mono-blade for "quiet work", demolitions equipment, specialty tools for the nature of your target (like a psyoculum and hex-warded wytch restraints, for example). The point is, the Stormtrooper is prepared for nearly any eventuality and can continue fighting on until death relieves them of their duties. Your Death Cultist is fairly useless if the enemy is a ways off. A two pistol gunslinger is certainly capable of fighting in melee if forced to, but they still are looking for a chance to slither back several meters to optimize their favoured weapons. Force the Stormtrooper to fight in melee and he simply lets his combat-slung or dummy-cord bound hellgun drop, pulls out a chainsword and tears the offending heretic's spine out! Versatility is the name of their game.

Please note that many Stormtroopers started their DH careers off as Guardsmen, and last time I checked there were three distinctive advancement trees for Guardsmen. The assault trooper path is very much the hard as nails elite trooper that specializes in dangerous frontal assaults and other semi-linear brutality. This still leaves the SCOUT and OFFICER paths, and both continue to have VERY valuable skill sets to contribute to their Inquisitor's team.

So the argument is that a stealthy, athletic elite special forces soldier fortified with a healthy dose of "black ops" experience and lavished with some of the finest wargear that the Inquisition can provide is incapable of holding their own against the more focused specialist combat experts in the long haul seems simply laughable. Sure, they are not the broken monstrosities that the Vindicare are, but they are also not stuck in the one-trick-pony category. If your ascended level games are all firefight and stabbings then I dare say that you are very likely shortchanging your players and missing the bigger point of that level of game. Politics, investigation, blackmail and betrayal are the REAL work of Inquisitors and their agents. The bloody battles or purges they unleash are far more likely to be the "endgame" that merely caps off where all the "real" action is concluded. Depending on the particulars of the ocean your sharks are swimming in the Stormtrooper, Crusader, Desperado and to a lesser extent the Death Cultist and Sororitas should be at least reasonably equipped to swim. By contrast, outside of special-order murder, the Vindicare is literally USELESS!

The one place where Stormtroopers definately suffer is selection of transition packages. "Retroactive Schola-training" that only benefits a poor candidate for Stormtrooper retraining quite simply SUCKS as an option, so the poor player immediately grumbles and flips to the universal transition packages section. The solution here is to sit down with your player when they are working out their ascension transition and have a discussion on where they want the character to grow and develop and how they plan on bridging the gap from big fish in a little pond to medium fish in an ocean-world. Based on these discussions I have ended up allowing ascended careers that make ABSOLUTE sense for the character, but are not on the "pre-approved by FFG" list and in some cases working with the player to make a new transition package for that character. This is actually fairly easy to do if your player hands you a 15 page typed "what my guardsman did during summer vacation" document to work from (for example). If your story makes sense within the campaign and the greater 40K universe then they are likely to emerge with a package that is tailor made to their character's story arc.

It is probably also important to note that my game has formally banned the "player character Vindicare" option for two very important reasons. One is the threat scaling problem of how to make a Vindicare sweat in a fight without murdering the rest of the team instantly. "I roll to dodge Exterminatus! " The other major reason is to be fair to my players. Having one character that is ONLY good at killing (and are only limited by their supply of Exitus ammo) and utterly worthless outside of combat makes for a very bored and frustrated player sitting through long blocks of time, or possibly even skipping sessions. "Oh, the team is going to the Governor's wedding party? I'm going to go see a movie and play X-box instead." It is also important to note that any important combat scenes that are not completely one-sided are resolved using mineatures and tactical maps. Long arms really come into their own if not every fight takes place in an 8m x 10m room. In case you are wondering, my game does not lack for qualified snipers despite the lack of Vindicare operatives drinking all the **** recaff every morning. The web-release Celestian and my own Gun Saint plus the existing careers plug a few BIG holes plus I "unlocked" the option of most of the Rogue Trader character options as new character options once my game went past the 5,000xp mark.

The number of "oh ****, I had better make a back-up character in case mine dies on this mission" concepts that have been tossed around have included a surprisingly high number of straight guardsman or guardsman with an alternate rank in something moving into Stormtrooper. Your results may vary with use. We use background packages and alternate ranks as long as they suit the character concept and the team as a whole, plus elite advances are not an unknown mystery. This means that if a character ends up "cookie cutter" then it is that player's own fault.

The Emperor protects!

If your idea of versitility is a plus point, by using a variety of weapons in the STs case, then you have not got much of an argument for ST being strong.

Cog - Boys, Redemptionist-Clerics and Arbites also come with the ability to pack loads of weapon training, get a better selection of skills and they dont lose their special trait when they get better guns. As soon as the ST puts down his Hellgun in favour of a Storm Bolter or a Plasma Gun he is no longer stands out as a combat character because the non-combat centric characters will be able to exactly what he can.

Even with specialist splits in their career gaurdsmen make only passable scouts becuase of their middling Ag and Per and crap Officer thanks to expensive Fel and Int boosts coupled with overly expensive social skill advances.

As you advance the assassins and the psyker go from strength to strength and remain outstanding combatants, the ST just falls in amognst the other careers which is not a good thing for a career that is all but dedicated to combat.

Anyway, at ascended level all characters can adapt or better still change the situation to favour them.

For example, your everyday run of the mill ascended deathcultist will cover over 100m in two rounds with an AB of 6 and Sprint, so it has to be one hell of a long range fire fight for the DC not to get into the stab and bounce territory and once they are there they win because very little can match them.

ZillaPrime said:

Vindicare is probably the best Hand-to-Hand fighter... A ridiculous number of Dodges, same attacks and all the combat goodies make him a very very strong dude up close and personal. Assuming they gear up apart from the "standart" kit. I agree that he is very one sided, just like the Death Cult and the Magus. Those 3 should be kept in a closet until you're in combat turns...

Isidro

Banjulhu said:

I think you may be missing the point with the previous post. The intention, as i read it, was to point out that Stormtroopers are skilled at all aspects of warfare, so bring a lot to the table even without bringing a heavy weapon or lots of different weapons.

The specialist classes may out-do a Stormtrooper at individual things (Vindicare and Desperado may be better shots, Inquisitors/Interrogators, Judges and Heirophants may be better socialites, Sages and Magos may be better loremasters, Crusaders and Deathcultists may be better in melee), but the Stormtrooper is a well rounded package with few shortcomings, that when you remove the game-breakingly overpowered Vindicare from the mix, is also one of the best ranged firepower focussed careers out there.

Stormtroopers do not need buffing, their Tearing Hellguns are immensely damaging for what they are, and maintain a degree of autofire unlike a lot of high damage weapons. Their carapace is very lightweight and doesn't inhibit their sneaking abilities, meaning they can bring a lot of gear with them to a fight. They are also great at commanding NPC troops and keeping a tactical overview of conflicts, and seeing as Ascension is much more gear to large scale tactical warfare alongside intrigue and politicking, this makes the Stromtrooper a must have in any Inquisitor's retinue.