LightCruiser/Cruiser hull choice and design?

By Xor, in Rogue Trader

Hi there!

Not sure if this is the right place but at least it's something to discuss :)

we're new to RT and trying to build our first ship for some combat oriented build. We can probably use any hull up to cruiser (not anything above, gm would like to keep them for later in the campaign if ever) with 70SP using the warrant path (+3 if needed).

I found the Secutor LC which looked nice being but I have trouble picking supplemental components, I always end up either short on power or on space or on SP. I tried a cheap cruiser (Lunar) and ended up with the same problems. :D I guess I want to put too many goodies in this ship and I need to restrict myself!

Should we choose another hull?

Any help on choosing weapons? Or any help for building the whole thing would be welcome :)

Thanks

Secutor with sunsears prow and dorsal, jovian missile batteries port and starboard. You will not be disapointed with that load out.

Im a fan of the frigate, with a lot of ship points you could throw in lots of good and best quality components (from BF Koronus) then have something which would be very servicable for many ranks of experience. Probably do-over most anything with the right load out of weapons, player and equipment bonuses... and be able to turn on a dime, something cruisers take a lot of (playing) experience to position well.

Just stay away from using lances.

Xor said:

Hi there!

Not sure if this is the right place but at least it's something to discuss :)

we're new to RT and trying to build our first ship for some combat oriented build. We can probably use any hull up to cruiser (not anything above, gm would like to keep them for later in the campaign if ever) with 70SP using the warrant path (+3 if needed).

I found the Secutor LC which looked nice being but I have trouble picking supplemental components, I always end up either short on power or on space or on SP. I tried a cheap cruiser (Lunar) and ended up with the same problems. :D I guess I want to put too many goodies in this ship and I need to restrict myself!

Should we choose another hull?

Any help on choosing weapons? Or any help for building the whole thing would be welcome :)

Thanks

If you don't have my RTSU (an excel based ship building utility that makes the ship's character sheet on the fly for you) get it and it'll save you a lot o ftime and trouble on the math: http://rtrpg.blogspot.com/

Download link for the excel file is at the bottom of the page.

And 70sp is a lot, you can make a mighty fine ship with that.

Wasn't the Secutor nerfed in an errata (lost one of its weapon slots)?

Frigates have the advantage of being able to twice as good as any cruiser, light cruisers can take more punishment and pack more firepower... Even though strangely less to the front than the frigate.

Mjoellnir said:

Wasn't the Secutor nerfed in an errata (lost one of its weapon slots)?

Frigates have the advantage of being able to twice as good as any cruiser, light cruisers can take more punishment and pack more firepower... Even though strangely less to the front than the frigate.

"able to move"?

Didn't see that errate, it got nerfed good. Not sure it's still worth the extra cost and reduced space compared to a cruiser...

Maybe I shall take a look at frigates too.

It was the Lathe Light Cruiser who lost a weapon slot, the Secutor keeps her dorsal slot, as far as I know.

Xor said:

"able to move"?

That should have been "able to turn". Sorry. preocupado.gif

Mordechai Von Razgriz said:

It was the Lathe Light Cruiser who lost a weapon slot, the Secutor keeps her dorsal slot, as far as I know.

Strange, I could have sworn that it was the Secutor.... I was so disappointed because I wanted to use it as the base for a Space Marine Strike Cruiser.... But the errata mentions only the Lathe, even though both have very similar stats and ship point prices. Strange.....

For 70 points I'd go with the Lunnar Cruiser with 5 Sunsears, the Planet Bound for Millennia ship background, and the Castellan Shield Array.

Solid combat platform and lots of room for upgrades. If your group isn't inclined to spend acquisition tests on additional components lose the Background and the Castellan Shield and toss in your extra's. Personally Luxury passenger quarters, Barracks, Temple-Shrine to the God Emperor, and a Compartmentalized cargo hold. And you've still got something like 7 space and 14 power left, depending on the essential component choices you've made.

Eventually you'll want to upgrade the Broadsides, to well, Broadsides, and a Munitorium when you get a chance.

Admiral Cain said:

For 70 points I'd go with the Lunnar Cruiser with 5 Sunsears, the Planet Bound for Millennia ship background, and the Castellan Shield Array.

Solid combat platform and lots of room for upgrades. If your group isn't inclined to spend acquisition tests on additional components lose the Background and the Castellan Shield and toss in your extra's. Personally Luxury passenger quarters, Barracks, Temple-Shrine to the God Emperor, and a Compartmentalized cargo hold. And you've still got something like 7 space and 14 power left, depending on the essential component choices you've made.

Eventually you'll want to upgrade the Broadsides, to well, Broadsides, and a Munitorium when you get a chance.

I recomend the Tyrant Class Cruiser. It's more of a bruiser and just seems more menacing. Other than that, I think this advice is good.

Mjoellnir said:

Wasn't the Secutor nerfed in an errata (lost one of its weapon slots)?

Frigates have the advantage of being able to turn twice as good as any cruiser, light cruisers can take more punishment and pack more firepower... Even though strangely less to the front than the frigate.

Nope. The Lathe class got nerfed and lost the dorsal slot. The Secutor, however, still has it (that's the big difference between the Lathe and Secutor now). As you've noted, straight cruisers don't have much firepower forward... You have to have a heavy / battle cruiser, or a Secutor, to get as much prow firepower as a frigate.

The only downside I can see to a Secutor class is not having enough space for all the toys, and relatively poor handling for a ship of its size. It is a very dangerous ship.

With 70 SP, my personal preference would be a Secutor or Chalice class. Probably the Chalice... you won't be able to get a fully kitted out Chalice for 70 SP, but that just means you have room for expansion.

Cheers,

- V.

GM does not us to have a BC/GC so it's not possible for now, plus I'd prefer a fully (or at least almost) equipped ship as we'll have like 20PF and won't be able to get anything for ages with acquisition tests... :s

Who said anything about aquiring ship components? Just find someone else who has what you want and kinda just take it from them. demonio.gif

The problem of light cruisers/cruisers (and of all other cpaital ships in RT) is that the system is based on Battle Fleet Gothic, but has massively increased the power of frigates and raiders. There is a fair amount of logic here, as the game is aimed at those ships, but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung to far and the capital ships are now seriously underpowered as a whole. Take a Lunar cruiser and a Sword frigate. For a ship about 5 times the mass with 4 times the crew, the fighting difference is laughable.

The effect is even worse for light cruisers. With the basic rules, a Dauntless class light cruiser will get outfought by a frigate any day of the week. In BFG, the main reason of being of an Imperial light cruiser was its speed and manoeuvrability (90 degrees) that allowed it to keep up with the fast escorts and give them a capital ship stiffening and some good firepower. But the present RT translation of the forward lance armament of a Dauntless (Voidsunder lance battery (15 power and 8 space, none less) is uncomparable to the firepower of, say, two Ryza Plasma batteries that a frigate can easily mount...and fire in a 270 degree arc of fire. As to the manoeuvrability...45 degree turns make light cruisers very easy targets.

There are a few threads here, mostly amongst the house rules, that discuss these problems and offer some advice. One of the thing about everyone agrees on is that the original 'combining of macrobatteries in one salvo rule' has got to go, as this makes any additional battery fire after shields and armour have been beaten as efficient as lance fire. So, before making up your mind on the ship, it might be wise to see if you will use any of the proposed house rules.

In the end, the main advantage of a cruiser at the moment is the huge amount of space availiable (but even that will suffer if you optimalise a ship for combat). This allows you to add many extras that enhance gameplay and RP. Still, with 70 SP, I really don't know if I would not build the 'perfect' frigate. With the same shields as a Dauntless, 66% of its hull and a far more flexible armament, you can make a very handsome ship.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

van Riebeeck said:

In the end, the main advantage of a cruiser at the moment is the huge amount of space availiable (but even that will suffer if you optimalise a ship for combat). This allows you to add many extras that enhance gameplay and RP. Still, with 70 SP, I really don't know if I would not build the 'perfect' frigate. With the same shields as a Dauntless, 66% of its hull and a far more flexible armament, you can make a very handsome ship.

Friedrich van Riebeeck, Navigator Primus, Heart of the Void

Secutor can fire 3 weapons on each side except behind so I'd say it may be a bit better than a frigate in terms or firepower, though it loses quite a bit of mobility.

Which frigate hull (and weapons, I guess good/best quality) would you use?

The flanking fire of a secutor is heavier then a frigate, as is the flanking fire of any cruiser. But forward a frigate can deploy almost as much firepower as a battlecruiser (well, no very long range lances nor heavy torpedo batteries, obviously). The problem with secutors is that on their small frame and with the limited power availiable they do make good 'poor man's cruisers' but can do little else.

What to do all depends a bit on the rules you will follow, I suppose. And what you wish to accomplish with the ship. Is it mostly a warship, or do you intend to trade? Do you wish to haul troops or are you planning on luxurious quarters for your Rogue Trader?

As weapons go, the Sunsear and Ryza plasma batteries are great, especially at best quality. With both at STR 5 and CRIT 3, they are terrifying. Add a munitorium and they will do astounding damage, the Sunsears with vast range (9/18 VU), the Ryza plasmas with terrible damage (1D10+5 per hit and two compartiments hit/crit, ouchies). Of course, you could do one of each, essentially giving you one good long range weapon system and a shattering close in maul. Just take the damage potential of a best quality Ryza plasma with munitorium,. At full hits it does between 30 and 75 points of damage, with an average around 52 points. A Mars Macro broadside on a cruiser might get you with that munitorium between 24 and 78 with an average of 51 on 6 hits. Most importantly, the low crit of sunsears and ryzas will start disabling enemy ships with depressing regularity. Add to that a good speed and 90 degrees turning capability, and you have a very deadly ship....I almost said little, but that is relative in WH40K, as a Sword is, well, bigger then a Star Destroyer. The hull...well, stay with the classics, a Sword or a Tempest, both are good. The differences are minimal, a bit of space, some armour and turret rating. I would just stay away from the Falchions. Yes, they do add a limited torpedo capability (two tubes), but at the cost of a lot of space that can be better used for extras. If you have special torpedoes, it might be worth it (like using Virus torpedoes to get your hands on undamaged lifeless ships), but with your low profit rating even normal torpedoes will be hard to resupply. On the whole, I do not see the use of the Voss ships.

One Caveat, only cruisers and bigger can be efficient fighting carriers. Other ships can carry aircraft, but the SP/strength/squadron comparison is mostly very bad. Take the 58 point Voss Defiant and compare it with the 63 point Dictator. The Defiant can only launch 2 squadrons/turn compared to 4 suadrons/turn for the Dictator, or 1 suadron/29 shippoint versus 1 squadron/16 shipoints. Same thing, the 6 squadrons carried by the Defiant go for a measly 1 squadron/10 shippoints. The 12 squadrons of a Dictator are about 1 squadron/5 ship points. So the small 5 points difference between light cruisers and cruisers give a carrier that is at least twice as efficient...discounting 'small' things like a realistic weapon fit and two shields. Again, silly Voss shipyards.

FvR

van Riebeeck said:

The flanking fire of a secutor is heavier then a frigate, as is the flanking fire of any cruiser. But forward a frigate can deploy almost as much firepower as a battlecruiser (well, no very long range lances nor heavy torpedo batteries, obviously). The problem with secutors is that on their small frame and with the limited power availiable they do make good 'poor man's cruisers' but can do little else.

I agree space and power is a bit too limited for my taste :( That said it has dorsal/prow/port/starboard so it should be able to pack as much fire forward (prow+dorsal) as a frigate, shouldn't it?

van Riebeeck said:

What to do all depends a bit on the rules you will follow, I suppose. And what you wish to accomplish with the ship. Is it mostly a warship, or do you intend to trade? Do you wish to haul troops or are you planning on luxurious quarters for your Rogue Trader?

As weapons go, the Sunsear and Ryza plasma batteries are great, especially at best quality. With both at STR 5 and CRIT 3, they are terrifying. Add a munitorium and they will do astounding damage, the Sunsears with vast range (9/18 VU), the Ryza plasmas with terrible damage (1D10+5 per hit and two compartiments hit/crit, ouchies). Of course, you could do one of each, essentially giving you one good long range weapon system and a shattering close in maul. Just take the damage potential of a best quality Ryza plasma with munitorium,. At full hits it does between 30 and 75 points of damage, with an average around 52 points. A Mars Macro broadside on a cruiser might get you with that munitorium between 24 and 78 with an average of 51 on 6 hits. Most importantly, the low crit of sunsears and ryzas will start disabling enemy ships with depressing regularity. Add to that a good speed and 90 degrees turning capability, and you have a very deadly ship....I almost said little, but that is relative in WH40K, as a Sword is, well, bigger then a Star Destroyer. The hull...well, stay with the classics, a Sword or a Tempest, both are good. The differences are minimal, a bit of space, some armour and turret rating. I would just stay away from the Falchions. Yes, they do add a limited torpedo capability (two tubes), but at the cost of a lot of space that can be better used for extras. If you have special torpedoes, it might be worth it (like using Virus torpedoes to get your hands on undamaged lifeless ships), but with your low profit rating even normal torpedoes will be hard to resupply. On the whole, I do not see the use of the Voss ships.

One Caveat, only cruisers and bigger can be efficient fighting carriers. Other ships can carry aircraft, but the SP/strength/squadron comparison is mostly very bad. Take the 58 point Voss Defiant and compare it with the 63 point Dictator. The Defiant can only launch 2 squadrons/turn compared to 4 suadrons/turn for the Dictator, or 1 suadron/29 shippoint versus 1 squadron/16 shipoints. Same thing, the 6 squadrons carried by the Defiant go for a measly 1 squadron/10 shippoints. The 12 squadrons of a Dictator are about 1 squadron/5 ship points. So the small 5 points difference between light cruisers and cruisers give a carrier that is at least twice as efficient...discounting 'small' things like a realistic weapon fit and two shields. Again, silly Voss shipyards.

FvR

We'll probably go for a warship, but not really a troop hauler.

For weapons, shouldn't we keep the same weapons instead of mixing long and middle range? It's a bit awkward that way or so it feels, should we stay far away or should we try to close on the enemy...

We didn't really intend on carrying torpedoes or crafts because i'm pretty sure our gm would, if not disallow, discourage us from plundering every enemy ships of their crafts/torpedoes (if we can find such enemies at all!) so we would have to replenish crafts or torp with acquisition tests which seem really hard to pass with our low PF...

Turbulent Heavy Frigate for what it is, lots of hull, maneouverability, speedy enought to get away from anything too scary and a sh*t load of armour... at 42 ship points. Which still leave 28 or so out of 70 to pack it full of goodies that will give bonuses to all your objectives, I like to aim for 50-100 in each if I can squeeze them in. Ryza's and Pyros cannon if you like to grab them by the belt (extra 1pt of Strength and Damage is going to be extremely painful) and Sunsears if you like to range them down... or a bit of both, nothing really all that wrong with ye-olde macrocannons either if you're scavenging for power/space.

Yes, the forward firepower of frigates/secutor light cruisers/battlecruisers/Repulsive class Grand Cruisers is quite comparable, discounting lances. Those lances should put battlecruisers and bigger on a whole different powerlevel, but sadly enough they are with the rules as written underperforming heavily. At the moment, the sad fact is that with the right weapons the frontal firepower of a frigate (or even a raider) won't be much worse then that of the heaviest ships around. Just take that Voidsunder lance battery I mentioned above. At most it will do 42 points of armour ignoring damage, and each shield it has to beat will put a very hefty dent in it. Compare that with what two Ryza plasma batteries can do.

As for the armament, I myself would go for long range. Best quality sunsears and a munitorium will still have the ability to do devastating damage. Add turbo weapon batteries, and you have two range 10/20 weapon systems, each able to do (at max hits) between 20 and 65 points of damage. And yes, those 65 point do not ignore armour, but if we take a foe with 20 armour, that remains a hefty 45 points. The speed and manoevrability of a frigate combined with the 270 degree arc of fire of these weapons will give you the ability to keep at a distance or out of an enemy arc of fire and pound away. On the other hand, the plasma weapons are very good if facing ships with a greater range (like many traitor craft) as they do quite a bit of damage. And if you can stand off, it does not matter much of you kill a foe in 1 turn, or in 3 turns.

FvR

Xor said:

We'll probably go for a warship, but not really a troop hauler.

For weapons, shouldn't we keep the same weapons instead of mixing long and middle range? It's a bit awkward that way or so it feels, should we stay far away or should we try to close on the enemy...

We didn't really intend on carrying torpedoes or crafts because i'm pretty sure our gm would, if not disallow, discourage us from plundering every enemy ships of their crafts/torpedoes (if we can find such enemies at all!) so we would have to replenish crafts or torp with acquisition tests which seem really hard to pass with our low PF...

Yeah, skip Attack craft and torpedoes if your starting PF is 20ish. Too many tests to keep those weapons running at full strength.

I also prefer to keep ship weapons of a similar range. If you're feeling fiesty you can put long range on the port side, short range on the starboard side and mount long range for your chasers. I wouldn't, but you could.

As for Frigate v Cruiser.... seriously? Two 40 point frigates will die horribly to an 80 point Cruiser given equal crew skills. I'd be surprised if the cruiser took 20 hull in the 3 or 4 turns it would take to grind out two frigates. This game really favors the big ships out of proportion to the SP. If you can start in a Cruiser you should. Plus Cruisers can pack in a lot more PF boosting stuff than a frigate hull ever will.

Keep in mind new guns are a -30 acquisition test, while hull and hold components are straight up. Get the biggest hull you can and pack it full of guns, fill the rest out as you play.

"This game really favors the big ships out of proportion to the SP."

Admiral Cain

Are you serious there? About any other post (not to mention personnal experience) talking about the relationship between frigates and cruisers quite agrees that capital ships have been massively underpowered. Considering both their BFG background and mass/manpower, they either should recieve a serious boost or the old escorts should be a bit downgraded. As the latter is not really realistic considering they are the staple of this game, the former considers consideration.

Obviously, they still are bigger and can carry more and theoretically heavier weapons, the lance batteries and broadsides. That lances as they are are but a shadow of the beams of death they should be is rather obvious, certainly considering the power and space requirements they have. And broadsides are powerful, but do not come near the power they have in BFG. Superficially, a STR 6 broadside on a Lunar resembles its battery strength, but if we compare it to a Sword with two sunsear lasers (under the basic rules the equivalent of a two part STR 8 battery capable of firing in a 270 degree arc), this clearly is not the case.

And there is the point cost. The SP and profit factor system is not as lineair as the point cost is in a wargame. While it is certainly the case that you can buy a cruiser with 70 SP and that a well handled and well equipped cruiser is a powerful ship, getting a well equipped cruiser for said 70 SP is a wholy different matter. For those SP, you can mount the bare essentials. That will give you a useful ship, no doubt about it, but those same SP will give you a perfect frigate. And I would definitely dare two frigates against one cruiser. What is true is that SP are no reflection of the point cost of ships in a wargame, but the SP/profit factor system was never meant to reflect this.

The main advantage of getting a cruiser is probably that you still have some improvements to work for and to savor later in the game. Starting out with a ship that has all the gadgets you wish for is nice, but just as with characters improvement is fun. And it is a whole lot bigger, which adds to its coolness factor (just as with pauldrons and hats). Still, it remains a personnal choice. I am probably a bit biased because I am rather disenchanted with the power of our Dauntless (which we liberated from a hulk), which is nothing like the sleek Razee it should be. But rather then a terror to escorts, we found ourselves being hunted by those 90 degree turning buggers, while we stayed stuck at 45 degree turns. Try to keep those from manoeuvring to a position of advantage, with just effective fire to port and starboard.

FvR

If your macro are short range use the Turbo upgrade to fire them at up to max range with no penalty - if you can manage the best craftsmanship turbo you can actually in crease their range a point before doubling, making your ranges equal out with dispirate weapons.

Of course you could buy two ships with 70sp. Check out some of the 25sp ships in BFK:

  • Iconoclasts are 29 each, 2 for 58sp with some sp for specials (32 space and 2 dorsal weapon spots each)
  • Vipers are 27sp (29 space only 1 dorsal)
  • Carracks (38space, 2 dorsal) and Goliaths (40space, dorsal, port, starboard) are 25 each

Would you like to see some of my loadouts for these vessels that could hunt in pairs?

A Carrack and Goliath could put 4 weapons batteries on a single ship in one round of combat, using macrobatteries this means you can get through most ships voids with both ships. And 78 space between them.

The Iconoclast and Carrack seem a better pair (4 dorsal and 70 space between them).

Well yeah we could buy two ships but we'd rather only use one for now :)

Maybe well' get a fleet later in the campaign but not now!

Just thinking about it but Turbos have no SP cost, so the only way to get them is after the beginning of the game either by stealing them or by buying them?

If you can't get your Gm to allow you having them at the start (by simply asking them to assign an sp cost or allowing some pre game acquisitions), yes you'll have to get them later.