Camping for Elder Signs (Curiositie Shoppe)

By Rogue_Joker_23, in Arkham Horror Second Edition

So I've been paging through the various FAQs provided at the back of my expansion rulebooks, and I'm curious about a seeming conflict of interest. Taken from the FAQ provided at the back of the Dunwich Horror rulebook:


Q: How exactly do location special abilities work?


A: The investigator may use the printed action on a location rather than draw an encounter card for that location rather than draw an encounter card for that location during the Arkham Encounters Phase. When he does so, he must be able to meet the requirements ( have at least $1 to shop with , or have Clue tokens, gate trophies, or monster trophies to spend, etc.). IN other words, players may not use the special ability of a location if they cannot actually resolve it.


Q: Why wouldn't investigators just camp out at the Curiositie Shoppe and buy the four elder signs?


A: If an investigator shops at the Curiositie Shoppe or General Store, the investigator must purchase one of the three items drawn if he or she has enough money to do so. The other two items drawn are discarded to the bottom of the deck. This makes it significantly harder to "browse" the Unique Item deck looking for elder signs.


Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I am rather half-asleep at the time of this posting, but do these two items seem to conflict somewhat? You can shop so long as you have $1 on hand, even though we all know that's not going to be worth squat at the Curiositie Shoppe. Even though someone wouldn't be able to buy anything, necessarily, chances of an elder sign showing up are rather slim. Couldn't someone with $1 just hang out and browse through the junk to try and heighten the chance of someone else with more money stopping by at the right moment to grab a sign? I could even foresee a loophole with Pete's ability to draw off the bottom of the deck occurring.


Your thoughts on the subject? Do you think camping for elder signs should be allowed, and if not, how else could the problem be averted?

Rogue_Joker_23 said:

Couldn't someone with $1 just hang out and browse through the junk to try and heighten the chance of someone else with more money stopping by at the right moment to grab a sign? I could even foresee a loophole with Pete's ability to draw off the bottom of the deck occurring.

Your thoughts on the subject? Do you think camping for elder signs should be allowed, and if not, how else could the problem be averted?

But the investigator "sifting" with less than $5 risks losing any and all elder signs that could come up through drawing. Anyone attempting this with $5 could stand a better chance of sifting, but bear in mind that any opportunity to buy something that comes up must be taken. I'm pretty sure by the wording that it isn't optional. A single duff buy could blow your fishing plans out the water.

Rogue, you hit the spot with Ashcan's ability. You can absolutely farm for ES with 1$ and, as soon as the ES shows up and goes to the bottom of the deck, you can have 5 dollar Pete arriving and resurrecting it. The only point against this strategy is that is pretty time consuming. Could be fine with base game only, but in case you have several expansions, the ES become rather diluted in the deck, and you can spend several turn with an investigator stuck at the CS.

Even if it's doable, it's still a guy which is doing nothing. And doing nothing in Arkham is the best way to die.

But i could be wrong.

Consider this situation. At the start of the game, ALL the investigators move to the Curiositie Shoppe, it might take 2 turns to get there but all should be able to get there barring an ill placed monster running around the streets.

In a 4 player game, that means 12 UI cards are drawn during the Arkham Encounters phase, there are only 39 cards in the base AH set and 4 of them are Elder Signs. This means there is a 78.7% chance of drawing at least one Elder Gate in the first 12 cards.

Now, the FAQ is clear that the investigator MUST purchase at least one item but this isn't a problem really. Since all the investigators are in the same location then they may trade money between themselves at any time (except during combat). The first investigator is given all the money and if no Elder Sign turns up in the first 3 cards then he purchases the cheapest item (or the best value for money item if the players think that is best). Next investigator is then given the remainder of the money and draws 3 more cards, etc, etc. The worse thing that can happen is if 3 Elder Signs are turned up at the same time since only one of them can be purchased.

The average starting money for the AH investigators is just under $6 (and this includes Sister Mary ($0) and Ashcan Pete ($1)). I haven't worked out the average cost of a UI card but the cheapest of 3 is unlikely to be more than $3 or $4 on average. As long as the total combined money of the investigators doesn't drop below $5 (cost of an Elder Gate), they can keep on drawing UI cards searching for gates. There is a good chance they can obtain a couple of Elder Gates using this tactic, plus a good few other UI cards that can be shared amount the investigators. Once they drop below $5 they should stop, unless they have Ashcan Pete with them of course.

There is also a loophole that a rules lawyer could exploit. Since you may trade equipment (money in this case) ANYTIME except during combat (see page 23 of the rules, Trading Equipment) you could say that the first investigator is given $1 to spend before the cards are drawn, the rest is held by the other investigators. If no Elder Gate turns up then the investigator doesn't purchase anything since he can't afford it (I think the cheapest item is $2 in the UI deck). If an Elder Sign is turned up then the other investigators may trade money at that instant to ensure the Elder Gate is purchased. Now, I would not allow this since I think the turning over of cards and the purchase is "atomic" and cannot be split but that is just the way I look at the rules such as this.

Even if this loophole is not allowed, gathering ALL the investigators at the Curiositie Shoppe is a good way to obtain Elder Signs.

Acquiring Elder Signs alone will not win you the game. Putting all your investigators in the CS at the beginning of the game will get you Elder Signs quickly, but will keep you from doing other important things, like acquiring clues, killing monsters, stopping rifts, loading the Fed's track, etc.

In the base game, acquiring elder signs in this manner is more feasible, but when it comes down to it, if you need all the Elder Signs to beat any of the GOOs in the base game, you need to seriously work on your tactics and strategy when playing the game.

xris said:

There is also a loophole that a rules lawyer could exploit. Since you may trade equipment (money in this case) ANYTIME except during combat (see page 23 of the rules, Trading Equipment) you could say that the first investigator is given $1 to spend before the cards are drawn, the rest is held by the other investigators.



Rogue_Joker_23 said:

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I am rather half-asleep at the time of this posting, but do these two items seem to conflict somewhat? You can shop so long as you have $1 on hand, even though we all know that's not going to be worth squat at the Curiositie Shoppe. Even though someone wouldn't be able to buy anything, necessarily, chances of an elder sign showing up are rather slim. Couldn't someone with $1 just hang out and browse through the junk to try and heighten the chance of someone else with more money stopping by at the right moment to grab a sign? I could even foresee a loophole with Pete's ability to draw off the bottom of the deck occurring.



Acebob said:

Acquiring Elder Signs alone will not win you the game. Putting all your investigators in the CS at the beginning of the game will get you Elder Signs quickly, but will keep you from doing other important things, like acquiring clues, killing monsters, stopping rifts, loading the Fed's track, etc.

In the base game, acquiring elder signs in this manner is more feasible, but when it comes down to it, if you need all the Elder Signs to beat any of the GOOs in the base game, you need to seriously work on your tactics and strategy when playing the game.



Ehhh... I try to get most of my investigators at the CS at the beginning of the game for Elder Sign shopping, and to trade items to optimize a character or two. I usually send out at least one investigator by the second turn to do other tasks (like clue collecting). Going to stop rifts shouldn't start until several turns into the game, and the fed track should probably be ignored most of the time, unless you have a playing style that necessitates it. So, there's really no good reason why you shouldn't spend a few turns with most of your characters getting better equipment (and hopefully an Elder Sign or a King in Yellow).

Avi_dreader said:

xris said:

There is also a loophole that a rules lawyer could exploit. Since you may trade equipment (money in this case) ANYTIME except during combat (see page 23 of the rules, Trading Equipment) you could say that the first investigator is given $1 to spend before the cards are drawn, the rest is held by the other investigators.



Well... This is debateable. The exact time of trading is actually more unclear than that. Some think it can be done at any time, some think it can be done at any time except during encounters, and some think it can only be done at any time during the movement phase or during the upkeep during final battle. I'm just pointing out that it's not quite clear and there is no official ruling on the subject yet.

Avi_dreader said:

some think it can only be done at any time during the movement phase or during the upkeep during final battle.

This is how my group plays. Consider the green final combat card (Lost Hope I think) where each player has to discard a weapon or spell to attack. If you can trade at anytime, couldn't one player just discard enough for all the players? That seems to be gaming it a bit. Keep in mind that the discard must be done before attacking, so this isn't during combat. Unless you consider all of Final Combat a 'combat' which would mean you could never trade items during final combat.

Acebob said:

Acquiring Elder Signs alone will not win you the game. Putting all your investigators in the CS at the beginning of the game will get you Elder Signs quickly, but will keep you from doing other important things, like acquiring clues, killing monsters, stopping rifts, loading the Fed's track, etc.

If you're playing the base game, then Elder Signs alone will pretty much do the trick. We obtained all four last game and they managed to drag a Yig game out to 5½ hours! We won because Mandy's personal story struck so many times that she eventually passed it. I had no idea what her personal story would do.

But yeah, that's a no-board-expansion strategy. Once you add boards, Elder Sign camping is much less effective.

Tibs said:

Acebob said:

But yeah, that's a no-board-expansion strategy. Once you add boards, Elder Sign camping is much less effective.



Eh... I still disagree with Pete. Obviously you can't have all your investigators doing this or you will lose, but there are only 108 unique items. If you have Ashcan shop for fifteen turns (and realistically, I think plenty of games last longer than 15 turns, especially if you play a delaying strategy based on obtaining Elder Signs or Eltdown Shards) you can get through nearly half the deck. So, statistically you should get 2 out of the five Elder Signs. Which is equivalent to 6 turns of shopping in a 3 investigator game, 8 in a 4 investigator game, 10 in a 5 investigator game. See where this is going? Now of course, this calculation was made without considering the presence of Eltdown Shards (if you get even one with Pete you can extend the game almost indefinitely). In a way, a legitimate strategy (and by "in a way" I mean do this if you're determined to ruthlessly win), would be deliberately browsing for the Eltdown Shards with two investigators while the other investigators seal and close whatever they can to prevent the AO from waking up, then once an Eltdown Shards is found, support investigators keep supplying pete with money to rebuy it until the Doom Track is brought back to zero (while other investigators keep going for seals).

If you have two investigators doing nothing but shopping on one dollar when Pete's in a game, just to make the Eltdown Shards show up. You can go through 15x6 cards worth of shopping easily... So... 90 cards in 15 turns (not to mention starting equipment). You'd probably have to be a little less aggressive with this strategy with a three investigator game (but if you only go after closing gates, and not sealing them, until you have the first Eltdown), you can pull it off, especially if you just leave a few high frequency gates open... Plus you also have a few unique items taken out of the deck as starting equipment, and possibly items won from encounters or Migos, and Ashcan can check if the bottom item's Eltdown ;') so... You shouldn't have any problems pulling off this strategy, if you're patient and ruthless.

Of course... With four or more investigators, pulling off this strategy is laughably easy.

Note: with only three investigators... It may be somewhat difficult to pull of if you're playing Kingsport (since it will be difficult to manage the shopping spree and keep the gate limit from breaking, and keep the rifts from opening), but I think you can still do it most of the time, unless you're playing Yig, Zhar, or Rhan Tegoth. Or Y'golonac obviously.

Once you find the Eltdown Shards, Pete's going to have to keep buying it. He'll have to have enough money to spend $5 each turn.

so.. can i try to buy at the general store / curiositie shoppe with no cash on hand, but with the credit rating (and am i forced to exhaust it if i am able to)?

also, can i try to buy at the general store with no cash on hand, but the tasks in play (as they cost $0, and thus are affordable with what i have)?

Taurmindo said:

so.. can i try to buy at the general store / curiositie shoppe with no cash on hand, but with the credit rating (and am i forced to exhaust it if i am able to)?

also, can i try to buy at the general store with no cash on hand, but the tasks in play (as they cost $0, and thus are affordable with what i have)?

In both cases, I'd rule no. Heres why.

1) It seems to me that the faq says you have to have the dollar to have a possibility to buy an item. If I recall correctly, Credit Rating says to exhaust instead of spending 2 dollars, which doesn't seem to be the same to me as actually having a dollar (or two dollars).

2) I can see your point here. But again I think you'd need the dollar to even draw the three cards. Any ruling otherwise would allow for trawling the item decks for specific ones and gaming the system.

Avi_dreader, I think you are underestimating the effort to avoid hitting the maximum gate number. It’s not only closing and sealing gates, but also killing monsters, dealing with rumors, etc. Not to forget that you need some money to buy the elder signs, that you would normally invest in weapons, etc. to help you.

A different approach: About every 21st (5 of 108) item is an elder sign, so on average you need 7 turns per investigator for an elder sign to show up at the Curiositie Shoppe. Then it takes another turn for Ashcan Pete to actually buy the elder sign.

However, in 8 turns an investigator can in most cases do more efficient stuff than acquiring an elder sign, e. g. collecting 5 clue tokens, killing monsters, having beneficial encounters, closing gates, etc.

Another camping strategy for the base game: Darrell Simmons has normal encounters at the Curiositie Shoppe hoping for the “Jackpot” encounter. With his special ability he has a chance of 2/7≈0.29 to gain the desired encounter. Additionally there are some other encounters, which may provide an elder sign by chance. And he may do this trick all on his own—no investigator crawling through the unique item deck, while Ashcan Pete is waiting.

An investigator doesn't go "shopping" for "tasks." He enters the shop, and if he's seriously planning on buying something, carries at least one dollar just in case he finds something he'd like. If he has no money, he can't go shopping.

Then, while browsing around for something to buy, he comes across signs or fliers that advertise work or internships that the investigator can participate in. Perhaps the shopkeeper offers him a lead. Despite the fact that the investigator found a cheap item or two, or in the event that he found nothing he could purchase, he decides instead to look into these offerings and takes the task.

avec said:

Once you find the Eltdown Shards, Pete's going to have to keep buying it. He'll have to have enough money to spend $5 each turn.

A) bank loan exploits

B)trading trophies at the river docks

It's not difficult to get cash if you want it.

Not to mention that if you have a larger team you retainer hunt or gain cash by other means.

Wrzlprmft said:

Avi_dreader, I think you are underestimating the effort to avoid hitting the maximum gate number. It’s not only closing and sealing gates, but also killing monsters, dealing with rumors, etc. Not to forget that you need some money to buy the elder signs, that you would normally invest in weapons, etc. to help you.

A different approach: About every 21st (5 of 108) item is an elder sign, so on average you need 7 turns per investigator for an elder sign to show up at the Curiositie Shoppe. Then it takes another turn for Ashcan Pete to actually buy the elder sign.

However, in 8 turns an investigator can in most cases do more efficient stuff than acquiring an elder sign, e. g. collecting 5 clue tokens, killing monsters, having beneficial encounters, closing gates, etc.

Another camping strategy for the base game: Darrell Simmons has normal encounters at the Curiositie Shoppe hoping for the “Jackpot” encounter. With his special ability he has a chance of 2/7≈0.29 to gain the desired encounter. Additionally there are some other encounters, which may provide an elder sign by chance. And he may do this trick all on his own—no investigator crawling through the unique item deck, while Ashcan Pete is waiting.



I realize that some people have trouble managing their gate closing timing. It's just something you have to work on until you get a good feel for how to deal with it. One hint on managing it... If you wait until you're nearly at the wake up limit, you will lose, especially if you're short on manpower. You'd need to close without sealing a few times (with the eltdown strategy), and fast, with at least one investigator if you want to pull it off. In larger investigator games without the eltdown strategy (5+), it often helps to go for a really early closing without placing a seal. You'll have enough manpower to still get the win despite possibly getting an extra doom token from doing that.

I'm not really sure why you brought up Darrell and the base game though, because we weren't discussing either, and who would want to make the base game even easier? It's already a bad boring joke. But actually, the ideal base game Darrell camping strategy involves getting The Dragon's Eye through the curiositie shoppe encounter that lets you search the deck and buy a card. Then if you're just playing for a win instead of score, start using this trick to have darrell search the deck for the four elder signs. You'll be able to get that encounter more times faster with The Dragon's Eye, and more consistently. You'll have your win really fast. But if you're playing for score, you'd want to exploit South Church as well ;') Or you can do that as well after you harvest all the Elder Signs if the ease of the game degrades your moral fiber and makes you too lazy to pick up the last ten clues.

But anyway, back on track, the ideal Ashcan strategy involves exploiting Eltdown shards. Ignoring that for a moment, just hunting for Elder Signs is extremely effective. You're assuming that hunting for clue tokens and killing monsters is efficient, but it's not. You take damage, you spend time, and here's the thing, you don't need to. The more you move around on the board, the more you risk opening another gate, getting delayed, having time lost, or something worse. Staying at the shop allows you to control the risk more effectively (completely effectively if you can spare two investigators). Also, there are only so many clue tokens on the board. And even if you're playing all boards, you need to wait for more clues, or generate more clues. Getting an elder sign is the equivalent of generating at least 5 clues (it's usually six if you consider it as an extra turn as well, unless that turn generates a clue on a gate).

It may not be fun, but it is effective and efficient.

Also, killing monsters is a low priority. The only time you really need to do it is if there's a color on the board, or if there's a monster blocking a gate.