Mark Harrigan LiTaS

By amikezor, in Arkham Horror Second Edition

Tibs said:

avec said:

But when a monster "appears" during an encounter at a location, common sense would suggest that the monster had been at the location since before the encounter took place.

Actually, when an elder sign is on a location, "a monster appears" encounters are canceled. But since monsters that are already on the board pay no mind to elder signs, common sense actually dictates that they cannot have been already in the location. cool.gif

But skipping the Mythos phase because an arbitrary investigator lost his turn? Absolutely not. The Ancient One will not wait because he picked investigator names out of a hat and the one selected happened to be in jail.

Hmm. Okay, good point. Though common sense also suggests that any monster that exists must have a location of some sort.

xris said:

Actually, I think this is covered by the rulebook.

Page 17, Lost In Time And Space
"Any investigator who is lost in time and space is immediately moved to the Lost in Time and Space area of the board. The investigator is now delayed, and the player should place the investigator marker on its side. The investigator loses his next turn, remaining in the Lost in Time and Space area. The player may only stand his investigator marker back up during the Movement Phase. On the following turn, at the start of the Upkeep Phase, the player may move his investigator to any location or street area of his choice in Arkham."

Notice that the rules here refer to the investigator NOT the player. The investigator loses his next turn, it does not say that the player loses his next turn.

Page 9 of the rules at the start of Phase V: Mythos
"During the Mythos Phase, the first player draws a mythos card and performs the following actions:"

Here it is the player who draws the Mythos card, not the investigator. So it doesn't matter if the investigator has to miss the next turn, the player still performs Phase V.

Also, for Phase I, the rules say that the player performs the actions. For Phases II, III, and IV, the rules say that the player performs the actions, but only if the investigator is in Akrham or an Other World. So, if a player's investigator is LITAS, he could not perform any actions in Phases II, III or IV, but his player would still perform actions in Phase I.

Still, the assumption of this line of reasoning seems to be if an investigator loses his turn, it doesn't necessarily mean that the player loses his turn. This assumption implies that player's turns and investigator's turns are two different things. But I don't know if rules actually say anywhere that the investigators even get turns. Under "The Game Turn" on page 5, it says that the player's complete the five phases each turn. There's no mention of what an investigator's turn consists of, or if they have turns at all. If investigators do not have turns, then logically they cannot lose their turns.

It seems awfully convoluted to assume that player's turns are separate from investigator's turns. However, if we assume that the player's turn IS the investigator's turn, that they are one and the same, then if the investigator loses his turn, the turn must be considered "lost" to both the player and the investigator. A lost turn would deprive both the player and the investigator of the ability to perform any actions until the next turn, including actions taken during the Upkeep and Mythos phases.

But, if we assume that player's turns and investigator's turns are NOT one and the same, then we have no information about what an "investigator's turn" is, since the rulebook only describes player's turns.

It might be simplest if we assume that "lose your turn" means that the investigator loses his actions, but the player does not. But now I'm just making things up that aren't in the rulebook.

**** you, Mark Harrigan! This is all your fault!

Yeah, it really is a terminology issue. For example, the Ancient One Yibb-Tstll has the following attack:

The first player rolls dice equal to his focus. If he does not roll at least one success, he is devoured.

It is clear that "First Player" in this case does not mean the player—it means the investigator. It also does not imply that if a single player is controlling multiple investigators, that he gets to choose which one is being attacked. Lastly, it is obvious that Blessing and Curse affects the outcome of the roll, because the attack goes on to say:

If he rolls two or more successes he is Blessed.

It'd be difficult to argue to me that the blessing affects the investigator's attack and spellcasting ability, but not his defense.

In any case, here is the card I was thinking about:

EpicBattleYig2.png

How are the successes counted? Does each investigator roll four dice? If so, do individual blessings and curses affect their successes?

Or does the first player roll the collective sum of dice? And if so, are ALL the results affected by the first player's blessing or curse? If not, why didn't it merely say "For every 5 and 6 rolled?" Why isn't a specific player, even if it's the first player, called upon to roll the dice?

avec said:

Hmm. Okay, good point. Though common sense also suggests that any monster that exists must have a location of some sort.

Well if the conclusion is that the monster cannot have already been on the board when "a monster appears," but it must have some location at all times, then the only possibility is that it was in one location—be it even another dimension—and then "a monster appears" causes it to suddenly be in your location. The conclusion? It has entered your location. So, Werewolf's stamina damage should trigger.

gran_risa.gif

Tibs said:

avec said:

Hmm. Okay, good point. Though common sense also suggests that any monster that exists must have a location of some sort.

Well if the conclusion is that the monster cannot have already been on the board when "a monster appears," but it must have some location at all times, then the only possibility is that it was in one location—be it even another dimension—and then "a monster appears" causes it to suddenly be in your location. The conclusion? It has entered your location. So, Werewolf's stamina damage should trigger.

gran_risa.gif

Yeah, except Another Dimension is a location on the board, and the monster chit wasn't there either.

Well the only reasonable conclusion is that when you battle a monster, you are in the same place. You're definitely in Another Dimension, so the monster must be as well. These encounters are fleeting—they are designed on purpose so that the monster never occupies a literal place on the board for any span of time outside of your parenthetical encounter.

Tibs said:

But skipping the Mythos phase because an arbitrary investigator lost his turn? Absolutely not. The Ancient One will not wait because he picked investigator names out of a hat and the one selected happened to be in jail.

Seriously; what do you think this is, BSG? gui%C3%B1o.gif

Heh. Did anyone recheck the Blessing/Curse cards? They don't reference the Investigator at all. Just "you". So while the Investigator may be "blessed", it's the Player that possesses the game card, which then determines what is and isn't a success when that player rolls dice. So it would seem both the Player and the Investigator are "Blessed", just maybe reaching the same result by different reasons?

wow. I could not think that Mark could generate so many posts :-)

Well, for me, you guys are right at the edge of over-interpreting fuzzy words from the rules (i.e. player vs investigator turn). I am not sure it really matters so much :-)

amikezor said:

over-interpreting fuzzy words from the rules




personally, in our group we play it like the investigator loses all phases excepty mythos. they don't roll for blessings/curses, don't collect money from retainers, don't get to refresh the elephant gun etc. no good and no bad stuff.

the mythos cards and effects are too powerful to ignore however. just because you're passed out at the hospital doesn't mean you can ignore the color of outer space. or waking up on the strange house in the mist.

i wouldn't say the rules really support this per se.. but i consider it:

phases 1-4 = the investigators' phases
phases 5 = mythos, the.. mythos' phase.

(also, of course mark harrigan can bring in this many posts. he rules.

woooo mark! rules!

mark!)

In our group the person who loses the turn doesn't participate in any of the phases, save to stand his investigator back up. If he would have received the first player button on the turn he is supposed to lose, we simply skip the button over him to the next player.

This thread has been a great read. I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who took the time to think this out and share their interpretations. I'm new to the community, but you guys have been a great help to me in my recently discovered Arkham Horror addiction.

Cai