@fhornmikey: They don't draw them, they put them on their agenda with Maester's Path. You don't need to draw any chains in a "Maester" deck.

I think the confusiton is you mean chains in general Stasis and fhornmikey is refering to the Apprentice's Collar. Getting three apprentice collars on turn one would crazy draw.

darknoj said:

This ^. The way you were talking made it seem as though it was "easy" or "common" to get all three ACs at the start of the game.

I didn't say you could have all three in play at the beginning of the game. I said you can have all three on the table at the beginning of the game (which you do when you search your deck for chains and attach them to your agenda) and from there start putting them onto your power characters.

And no, it's not unrealistic to win 3 challenges on the first turn and get all 3 into play. You win one on defense and two on offense and voila! It's happened many times in games I've played. I've been hit by an Ebrose with 10 chain attachments on turn 2.

Stasis said:

Stasis said:

I'm with you and Fatmouse here - and I think you sum the argument up very well. In a vaccuum - Apprentice Collar isn't that bad - taken as a whole wiht eh way this set is shaping up; its a problem. I wouldn't object if this got banned.

Stasis said:

Sure, and my point is that you are incorrect because you may only attach ONE copy of any individual chain to the agenda, not all three. To use a popular internet phrase, "you're doing it wrong."

I need to learn how to read. Thanks for clarifying that, I'll make sure no one puts multiples of a chain on the agenda from now on.

I am really scared about what happens when the rest of the chains come out. I mean, it's already extremely powerful and some of the best chains aren't out yet. Valyrian Steel Link, Iron LInk, Black Iron Link, it's going to be nasty...

ShivesMcShivers said:

And here i thought i was the only one who wanted Carrion Bird on the restricted list

I didn't even think of restricting or errata'ing Carrion Bird. It makes some sense, though, as I'm always a bit suspicious when many/most decks include a certain card practically automatically. Before the trait-manipulation in the environment got so heavy, it was common, but now with so many seasons decks and so much trait-manipulation, it seems like almost every deck has a couple carrion birds.

Stasis

I can understand where your coming from now more. If in your meta or the people you play online have been putting 3 apprentice collars on their agenda it would be OP for sure. Then you really would not need masters in the deck. I think once people play the agenda correctly you will see that the apprentice collar is not such a big issue in 90% of the decks when there is only one on the agenda for you to destroy once its in play.

Is there a specific reason why people think that Apprentice Collar should be banned and not instead put on the Restricted list?

...not that I see it as that big an issue really. Building a large pile of chains on one character is something that:

1. suffers from the usual double-negative of attachments being weak due to character control
2. if built using apprentice collar lets your opponent get many chains with one attachment discard
3. if built using printed maesters and no apprentice chain is weak to trait blanking (Frozen Moat, Nightmares, Old Nan) and finally
4. if built using printed maesters with apprentice chains, is a LOT of work to do something already

Does the Maester-cycle change what you need to run in your deck? Sure, but I also thought that was the general idea behind the 'Living' part in the LCG...

And Ebrose? Really? Just wait until Slander and Lies becomes legal.

The errata on Carrion Bird to 'printed' might be a decent option.

Does Slander and Lies look like the death to every Brotherhood deck to anyone else?

ScottieATF said:

Yup, and if Rush in general was hard to win Tournaments with until now, then I think we ain't seen nothing yet.

ScottieATF said:

Actually I'm still waiting to see if it does, with a brotherhood deck you do have to have means to deal with attachment or you will usually fall for the milk of poppy and kill effect or next turn valar. Yes it will be hurt, but I still wouldn't say totally destroyed. also the Lannister player has to have things to spend the gold on which if you have destroyed their draw/hand might be hard for them.

ScottieATF said:

ScottieATF said:

Its an interesting card for sure. Given that its really only effective against Renown characters and Brotherhood decks unless you start trying to combo it with Head of a Dwarf which seems like a bad idea in an attachment-hate heavy environment, how much play will it actually see? Plus its a Condition, its no harder to remove than Milk and Brotherhood decks should already have a solution for Milk. Frozen Moat is probably a bigger worry imo.

But unlike Milk, provided they have cards to spend gold on, you have to remove it the second it is played or else you could not only lose all your power but give them a huge income advantage. They can Milk Beric but they still have to deal with any Dupes/Thoros. The same goes for Frozen Moat, they can blank Beric, but then they still have to kill him. Slander and Lies is just such a stupidly huge double benefit (keeping opponents power down and given you gold) that it could really ruin any chances of swinging the game away from a control focus.

ScottieATF said:

All true. But I meant Frozen Moat is worse because it can repeatedly prevent a Brotherhood deck from claiming any power in the first place; since it blanks Traits too, a couple of Frozen Moats can make sure that there aren't any Brotherhood characters to put power on even if the player wins challenges.

Skowza said:

Well this is assuming the person is attacking with the brotherhood characters in the first place. A smart move will be to have a strong character base in order to win challenges without beric or mad huntsman or something.

Also I feel like this card is yet another reason to give bara some renown granting abilities that doesn't rely on having unique characters.

I think I came up with a fix for the Carrion Birds, the Apprentice Collar, Ebrose and Maesters in general that still lets the agenda be useful. Why not errata the text on the agenda to read

Response: After you win a challenge, attach 1 Chain from this card to a character you control that participated in the challenge.

So if you wanted to make Carrion Birds Measter with the ability to change things into ravens you would need to win 2 challenges that they where in to do it. Even if your opponent was putting the effect to change things into ravens on a Maester they would need to win a challenge put the chain on and then only next turn use it to turn something into a raven.

This would effectively give everyone way more time to react to chains coming into play. It would slow down or prevent people from making Voltrons since their character would need to participate in the challenge to receive the chain. At the same time Maester decks could still use the agenda to splash chains around to give them some tool box strength….