Adeptus Mechanicus, an ally rather than a vassal?

By van Riebeeck, in Rogue Trader

van Riebeeck said:

It also really makes the interaction between a RT and the Adeptus Mechanicus very interesting. To take but a small example, if I am right one of the conditions under which the Ad Mech and the Imperium got bound in this tightly locked alliance was the complete and full right of the Ad Mech on any STC's discovered. As semi-independant actors with an Imperial writ, how does this apply to Rogue Traders? Do they have to hand that precious STC over under the Iron rule of Law (backed up with the fact that to keep their ship working they simply need the Ad Mech, not to mention the fact that the Ad Mech has some of the best ships availiable to humanity to back its threats up) or can they negotiate about its price and reward. And to complicate matters, in good old Imperial tradition, the Adeptus Mechanicus won't be a smooth centrally controlled body, and each forge world will vie for such a juicy price.

FvR

A better question would be, why would you even try to keep the STC to yourself?

A Rogue Trader isn't in a better position to exploit the knowledge than the AdMech, noone they could sell it to is either (unless you could the Dark Mechanicus, and if you're going to truck with traitors and heretics, then you might as well throw all the rules out the nearest airlock).

And it's not as if the Adeptus Mechanicus is going to ****** it away without even a thanks, on the contrary I think you'd be richly rewarded for such a find, assuming the find wasn't something dark and forbidden (like AI).

Well, there is a difference between selling an item and getting a finders fee, however nice that finders fee might be. And if the Adeptus Mechanicus can claim an STC (which they certainly can within Imperial context), you will just get the (allready exceedingly nice) finders fee, but it will change the mechanics.

Still, you could probably let different forge worlds bid against each other. The Adeptus Mechanicus is just as feudal as any part of the Imperium of man, so no reason not to get the best deal out of it.

FvR

In a role playing context the acquisition of any stc data, from a single cogitator schematic to a massive database of many items, would be of profound importance to the mechanicus that the rogue trader gives it to. Forge Worlds do communicate with each other to disseminate information. If you gave it to a particular forge world that forge world's leaders would certainly be happy and its a good opportunity to gain friends there - mighty friends that can, if not asses or outright evil - pay the characters handsomly in gelt (PF), items, influence all at once or whenever the characters were in need. Of course this is all a wonderful thing for the gm to use as the springboard for yet more adventures. Having the ear of the Forgemaster General of an entire Forge World and everyone (from the Administratum to the nearby Astartes Chapter to pirates and other villains) in the sector knowing it - might be more valuable than a cruiser given over to pay for the STC in question. Lots of RP possibilities.

van Riebeeck said:

It also really makes the interaction between a RT and the Adeptus Mechanicus very interesting. To take but a small example, if I am right one of the conditions under which the Ad Mech and the Imperium got bound in this tightly locked alliance was the complete and full right of the Ad Mech on any STC's discovered. As semi-independant actors with an Imperial writ, how does this apply to Rogue Traders? Do they have to hand that precious STC over under the Iron rule of Law (backed up with the fact that to keep their ship working they simply need the Ad Mech, not to mention the fact that the Ad Mech has some of the best ships availiable to humanity to back its threats up) or can they negotiate about its price and reward. And to complicate matters, in good old Imperial tradition, the Adeptus Mechanicus won't be a smooth centrally controlled body, and each forge world will vie for such a juicy price.

FvR

The various factions of the mechanicus will of course want to gain any new stc fragments over their brothers, in the games I've been in the Explorators have always been sure that any new knowledge or particularily tech was sold to their own faction/friends. In the end it winds up back with the mechanicus but it benefits them personally more and possibly helps with their own agendas.

In the background of 40k an stc fragment detailing how to make blades in a new better manner were found by an independent group. They passed it over to the mechanicus and each one got a moon each as a reward. The mechanius does have deep pockets and if someone uncovers something if they can afford to buy it they probably will, though sometimes if they can get away with killing you they might... different magos will take different approaches. If they are seen to reward them this will encourage others to do likewise if more fragments are found... if their are nothing but grim tales of the mechnicus killing people who were willing to sell this knowledge people will keep their mouths shut.

In a game of Ascension I am in my Magos Explorator Tesla Elric is the partner of the Inquisitor though not quite an equal one. It helps him gain influence and his remarkable skills help the Inquisitor, neither consider it to be a permanent arrangement but will likely last for decades assuming things continue to go well.

Explorators always seemed to me like a mechanicus version of rogue traders but with slightly skewed goals.

The Mechanicus and the Navigators on a Rogue Trader Vessel have to be handled somewhat differently as if the Rogue Trader abuses them badly then their parent organisations may choose to withdraw their services. A rogue trader can always attempt to make pacts with opposed factions in these organisations but if they really mess up no one will help them from these groups... the problem being they both have monopolies on services they can not do without. Then who can they turn to renegade tech priests and hereteks who bring more problems with them. It's even mentioned in one of the books that Inquisitors and Tech Priests might start a fight individually against one another but both organisations will stay out of it as if it is allowed to escalate then it could be very unpleasent for both parties.

bobh said:

Forge Worlds do communicate with each other to disseminate information. If you gave it to a particular forge world that forge world's leaders would certainly be happy and its a good opportunity to gain friends there - mighty friends that can, if not asses or outright evil - pay the characters handsomly in gelt (PF), items, influence all at once or whenever the characters were in need.

This happens automatically in the Mechanicum, each Forge World has their own version of the High Altar of Knowledge. Each Altar has a psychic servitor plugged into it, and any new knowledge is instantly transferred from that altar on that forge world to every single altar on every single forge world. All knowledge gained is dedicated to the High Altar on Mars. I can only assume, this was done in order to make sure that all human knowledge is never lost again, as was done during the Dark Age of Technology. It is the desire of many (the ones who haven't been corrupted with knowledge the Mechanicum frowns upon) Magos' to have their entire contents of knowledge uploaded into a High Altar upon their deaths. In essense, they sacrifice themselves to upload their mind's contents, they also upload part of themselves and become one of the souls inside the Altar.

Thus, it would be difficult to try and play the different forge worlds against each other in order to jack up the profit factor gain. Any reputable Explorator, Magos, or Forge Master, would provide an almost precise amount that would be acceptable to all in the Mechanicum.

the AM and the EoM started out as 2 seprat but allied empires. over time they have grown very dependant on one and other. the AM couldn`t survive without the resorces the EoM bring too there forges and the EoM couldn`t survive without the 'arcane' knowlege of the AM for making, building and maintaning all its teck.

they are one the board so too speak for the same reson the other are on the board. becaus they have power and a reson too be there. the church of the emperor only got a seat what 4000 +/- years after the emperor was set on his trone?

rogue traders as 'free' agents of the emperor abroad will have faring levels of conecting with the AM but should always remember that losing there suport is too lose you schip not long after.

and let us also remember there are a few teck consortiums (allied with the AM) that would kill for and intresting teck.

not counting the heriteck, renaged teck priest, inqusitor, teck guilds. trade groeps and nobels houses that would love too not be dependent on the AM for there teck needs

If the intention of this discussion is to determine how, when a Rogue Trader finds some kind of valuable STC related material, can turn it into the highest profitable outcome as possible - there is an interesting disuccsion. If the purpose is to discuss the greater lore and background material of the linked-empires I would be at a loss.

I think the Imperium is already ordered itself with the soverignity of both Terra and Mars already: Forgeworlds build, Imperial supplies. Imperials secure tech for the AdMech, the AdMech provides wargear and specialist personnel to maintain it. Forgeworlds and AdMech facilties are soverign territory and vice-versa for Imperial. Some personnel from either soverinty enter the service of the other (ie. Techpriests on ships) and fall under juristiction of their faction on those circumstances. Conflicts that disturb the peace are each taken at face-value: how much is it worth pursuing a cause for your faction vs the cost of unity. If you are at fault and caught and exceed your inherent faction value, you'll be left to the tender mercies of 40k justice. So, if you intend to do something very naughty make sure its valuable enough for someone to fight for your freedom if you are caught.

As far as a RT getting his worth from STC related materials: I assume only the Ad-Mech have the ability to fully interpret their value and are happy to pay a 40K randsom for anything valuable: it sets the even more valuable precedent for everyone to bring STC material to the AdMech in the future (paying people in moons is much cheaper then sending out entire fleets to scour a sector for 300 years because of a rumour).

I believe it would be entirely up to the AdMech to determine the value of STC (assuming its not Imperium shaking details, like a new better lasgun or whatever), because of the way technology is understood in the Imperium. I'm sure there is lots of STC stuff that is nice to have, but impossible to use because the data is fragmented, or that components of a particular design don't include the all of the pieces (ie. the plans for a missle launcher, but no plans for the missle) to make it effective. So, an earth-shattering STC, by appearance (ie. a new bolter!) is actually mostly worthless (we have no idea how to create the proper shells) - but rest assured - your progeny 3000 years later will get credit.

To further illustrate, I assume that any STC material that isn't obviously and directly valuable - and thus encourage a Rogue Trader to try and get the best deal is likely going to be about STC material that is known amongst the AdMech, in theory, - but the specifics and techniques are not widely known or well distributed amongst all the Forgeworlds: and thus provides an edge in giving it to one Forge or another. Perhaps a manufacturing process found in an STC is still being debated or discussed on Mars - the details aren't going to be settled soon - but having the details of that process found in a seperate copy - would allow an individual Forgeworld to analyze the details themselves and start re-tooling for the new process, or have everything ready when its authorized - thus providing a huge, but mechanically unimportant edge to one Forge over another.

jeddahl said:

This happens automatically in the Mechanicum, each Forge World has their own version of the High Altar of Knowledge. Each Altar has a psychic servitor plugged into it, and any new knowledge is instantly transferred from that altar on that forge world to every single altar on every single forge world. All knowledge gained is dedicated to the High Altar on Mars. I can only assume, this was done in order to make sure that all human knowledge is never lost again, as was done during the Dark Age of Technology. It is the desire of many (the ones who haven't been corrupted with knowledge the Mechanicum frowns upon) Magos' to have their entire contents of knowledge uploaded into a High Altar upon their deaths. In essense, they sacrifice themselves to upload their mind's contents, they also upload part of themselves and become one of the souls inside the Altar.

Thus, it would be difficult to try and play the different forge worlds against each other in order to jack up the profit factor gain. Any reputable Explorator, Magos, or Forge Master, would provide an almost precise amount that would be acceptable to all in the Mechanicum.

I don't buy this. Yes they have the altar of knowledge, but then again: not every scrap of knowledge'll be disseminated via it. The Admech believes in the Knowledge is Power creed rather strongely. If you read the situation in Dark Mechanicus prior to the Heresy then it is abundantly clear there are a large number of secrets each Magos keeps from his fellows. They do the research, they keep it secret from the rest so they have leverage among their own and towards others. Even the Fabricator General of Mars did not know all that was going on at Mars, he had strong hints but didn't know the details at all. Considering that i highly doubt he had detailed knowledge about all the other forgeworlds either.

It seems far more likely that the High Altar of Knowledge either contains knowledge that is voluntarily given (on some forgeworlds it might be punishable for the info not to be given voluntarily), or that it's knowledge isn't accessible unless one pays a certain price for it. Regardless of your rank as the priests of the Omnissiah are the ones who maintain and guard it, not the Fabricator General.

Citizen Philip said:

As far as a RT getting his worth from STC related materials: I assume only the Ad-Mech have the ability to fully interpret their value and are happy to pay a 40K randsom for anything valuable: it sets the even more valuable precedent for everyone to bring STC material to the AdMech in the future (paying people in moons is much cheaper then sending out entire fleets to scour a sector for 300 years because of a rumour).

I wouldn't assume this at all. STCs were made to be easily interpreted by stone-age hunter gatherers if need be. It all depends on the tech level of those it was made for. Meaning you'd have STCs any child could figure out and you'd have those that are a tad more complicated. However, they would never be insanely difficult to interpret as that'd be counter to their purpose.

its all fine and good if i can read the info but what if i don`t know if what i read it worth something? upgrade for knifes doesn`t sound like a lot but apparently some ppl got a moon for it.

if thats the insentve wow count me in can i get some of that action plz

I'm not sure about the High Altar transitting all knowledge to every Forge World.

For one thing, if it did that we wouldn't really have anywhere near the problem with losing knowledge that the Imperium does. It'd pretty much require destroying every Forge World in the galaxy, including Mars, to destroy even the slightist scrap of information. The Vanquisher battle-cannon, just to name one example we have of something that was (almost) lost (twice).

Granted, having the information and being able to understand it is two different things. STC machines were easy to use by design, the schematics that they could print out were not necessarily quite so simple, and probably required the requisite expertise in the appropriate field to understand, and they are the primary source of STC data (the machines not holding up to well over the eons).

Anyway, back to the Altars, if they automatically shared everything, then there wouldn't be that problem. It appears that the actual situation is that it connects to Mars and Mars alone, as a deliberate means of maintaining that planet's dominance among all the Mechanicus. If they're the only ones who have all the info, they're largely the ones who can control it. And there's enough fluff backing this up too. It talks about how when new designs are discovered they're sent to Mars for deliberation, and once a decision is reached they're the ones who decide which Forge Worlds to provide it to (the discovering Forge World usually being one of them, as a reward). There's also the Baneblade, of which there are unofficial copies produced by forges that don't have all the information, as those built using the STC template have a serial number recorded with Mars and their forge world of origin.

Badlapje said:

I don't buy this. Yes they have the altar of knowledge, but then again: not every scrap of knowledge'll be disseminated via it. The Admech believes in the Knowledge is Power creed rather strongely. If you read the situation in Dark Mechanicus prior to the Heresy then it is abundantly clear there are a large number of secrets each Magos keeps from his fellows. They do the research, they keep it secret from the rest so they have leverage among their own and towards others. Even the Fabricator General of Mars did not know all that was going on at Mars, he had strong hints but didn't know the details at all. Considering that i highly doubt he had detailed knowledge about all the other forgeworlds either.

It seems far more likely that the High Altar of Knowledge either contains knowledge that is voluntarily given (on some forgeworlds it might be punishable for the info not to be given voluntarily), or that it's knowledge isn't accessible unless one pays a certain price for it. Regardless of your rank as the priests of the Omnissiah are the ones who maintain and guard it, not the Fabricator General.

Oh yeah, no doubt. If you sell it to a Magos, he may never share that knowledge with the rest of the Mechanicum, depending on what it is. Likewise, you get into the issue of the Leximecahnics and whether they think the knowledge should even be uploaded into the altars at all. I play an Explorator in my Rogue Trader game, and the GM just gave us a piece of tech that rivals any STC. My character is ready to destroy the ship because he feels no one should have that type of power, except maybe the Astartes. So absolutely, knowledge may never even make it to a Forge World to be uploaded.

Blood Pact said:

I'm not sure about the High Altar transitting all knowledge to every Forge World.

For one thing, if it did that we wouldn't really have anywhere near the problem with losing knowledge that the Imperium does. It'd pretty much require destroying every Forge World in the galaxy, including Mars, to destroy even the slightist scrap of information. The Vanquisher battle-cannon, just to name one example we have of something that was (almost) lost (twice).

Granted, having the information and being able to understand it is two different things. STC machines were easy to use by design, the schematics that they could print out were not necessarily quite so simple, and probably required the requisite expertise in the appropriate field to understand, and they are the primary source of STC data (the machines not holding up to well over the eons).

Anyway, back to the Altars, if they automatically shared everything, then there wouldn't be that problem. It appears that the actual situation is that it connects to Mars and Mars alone, as a deliberate means of maintaining that planet's dominance among all the Mechanicus. If they're the only ones who have all the info, they're largely the ones who can control it. And there's enough fluff backing this up too. It talks about how when new designs are discovered they're sent to Mars for deliberation, and once a decision is reached they're the ones who decide which Forge Worlds to provide it to (the discovering Forge World usually being one of them, as a reward). There's also the Baneblade, of which there are unofficial copies produced by forges that don't have all the information, as those built using the STC template have a serial number recorded with Mars and their forge world of origin.

The source regarding the High Altar transmat is from Lexicanum which footnotes the story, The Titan Legions by Rick Priestly from White Dwarf 178.

As I re-read the snippet in Lexicanum, it sounds like what you're saying is correct. The altars on the forge worlds only upload to the High Altar on Mars, and don't share knowledge with each other. That truly ensures the dominance of Mars with the real High Altar of Knowledge. That also means that the Forge Worlds would compete for the knowledge, to have the exclusive right to produce that item. Granted, the players may not see the benefits of this knowledge within their character's life times, but they would receive a reward for providing them the knowledge.

Badlapje said:

Citizen Philip said:

As far as a RT getting his worth from STC related materials: I assume only the Ad-Mech have the ability to fully interpret their value and are happy to pay a 40K randsom for anything valuable: it sets the even more valuable precedent for everyone to bring STC material to the AdMech in the future (paying people in moons is much cheaper then sending out entire fleets to scour a sector for 300 years because of a rumour).

I wouldn't assume this at all. STCs were made to be easily interpreted by stone-age hunter gatherers if need be. It all depends on the tech level of those it was made for. Meaning you'd have STCs any child could figure out and you'd have those that are a tad more complicated. However, they would never be insanely difficult to interpret as that'd be counter to their purpose.

You'd likely be correct, if we weren't talking about fragments, and the fact there are no working STC device to help interpret the patterns. Fragments are pieces that either are, as I mentioned easy to understand - but you have no idea of the value (it is the plan for a gun) because the AdMech isn't in the habit of handing the details of the patterns in use, or the fragment is entirely indecipherable either because it is highly technical, in a format no longer understood, or for other reasons (scavenged STC equipment).

STC printouts are made as complex as the society that prints them from the STC machine needed them to be. Depending on their tech levels it'd either be a complicated blueprint for a fission reactor or a rather simple step by step guide for how to construct durable concrete or whatever else they needed. It was the ultimate adaptable tech manual according to the fluff: made so that colonists only needed that machine and it'd give you what you needed using locally available elements.

So no: i don't buy the whole line about the Admech being the only ones who can interpret a random STC printout. It all depends on the printout in question and it depends on who's reading them. Several hereteks have a mastery of tech that surpasses that of most of their orthodox admech counterparts. Going far beyond rote memorisation and into real understanding and ingenuïty. Arguing that only the Admech could make good use of STC fragments is imo too simplistic a view of the diversity in the 40k universe.

All that matters about STC fragments - is how they impact your game. If your game is about your players being able to find never-before-seen guns, armour, vehicles patterns, all wrapped up in little paper bundles - and start cranking it out without the need of the AdMech, that's your business. I'm not interested in anything like this at all.

The imperium has had 10k years to find all the easy good stuff, while Humanity has had almost twice as long to lose it. Anything left, in my opinion is either fragments already found, or somehow indecipherable - unless your game is not about all the lost knowledge, never to be known again. Anything usefui is extraordinarily rare.

Hereteks still have the expertise and learning necessary to understand their subject. That they're better at it than the orthodox Mechanicus is neither here nor there (and another subject to be debated at length somewhere else..), they're not amatuers and laymen who stumble upon some STC blueprints one day and start churning out whatever they're for the next. They're as much a bunch of scientists and engineers as the Adeptus Mechanicus is.

Which brings me to my primary point. Yes, STC technology was made to be easy to use and understand, but there's still logical cut-off point, beyond which where you just have to know about what the hell you're dealing with. There's not going to be some easy to understand manual that -anyone- can use to build a NUCLEAR REACTOR. If it was as simple as that, they'd have them in real life. And that's something that's real, don't even get me started on the believability of unskilled individuals being able to build things like Plasma Reactors, anti-grav technology, and Warp Drives, just because they can follow an instruction manual.

Blood Pact said:

Hereteks still have the expertise and learning necessary to understand their subject. That they're better at it than the orthodox Mechanicus is neither here nor there (and another subject to be debated at length somewhere else..), they're not amatuers and laymen who stumble upon some STC blueprints one day and start churning out whatever they're for the next. They're as much a bunch of scientists and engineers as the Adeptus Mechanicus is.

Which brings me to my primary point. Yes, STC technology was made to be easy to use and understand, but there's still logical cut-off point, beyond which where you just have to know about what the hell you're dealing with. There's not going to be some easy to understand manual that -anyone- can use to build a NUCLEAR REACTOR. If it was as simple as that, they'd have them in real life. And that's something that's real, don't even get me started on the believability of unskilled individuals being able to build things like Plasma Reactors, anti-grav technology, and Warp Drives, just because they can follow an instruction manual.

I'm not discussing Hereteks, specifically because they aren't AdMech -which is a point we agree on in spirit Exculding Hereteks that are not corrupted by some unknowable-science, or fallen under the general malaise of Chaos influence, I would imagine quite a number of Hereteks are scientific and reognizable as technologists and engineers without the bias of the machine cult: inherentially more prone to discovery and experimentation -all very heretical from the POV of the Admech and making them entirely different from them. The Meritech clans could be considered an example: science without the bias - heretical.

I agree there is a logical cutoff point and you do just have to know what you are doing - which is when it gets handed to the AdMech. An embargo on science is pretty all-encompassing. If you can't read a language, but you find a book with pictures - you could guess what it was about, and daresay you have forbidden knowledge on the subject - you might even discern the title of the book and what kind of material is covered in the volume (after lots of research) - but that's a far cry from being able to read a technical instruction manual to build something from it.

A nuclear reactor, is made up of a number of parts that, by themselves aren't especially difficult concepts or technically challenging, but the fissionable materials, and the technical infrastructure required to manufacture the components (skilled labour and machinery) - and those few key specific technical elements that bring it altogether are what make it difficult. The technicians who monitor the reactions, replace parts, etc, none of them need to be especially technical - just trained in their specific duty. I think it's fair to say, all the high-end conceptual science is what the AdMech keeps to itself.

The STC is El Dorado, Atlantis, etc. It's not suppose to be found, ever. It's a reason to explore!

Blood Pact said:

Which brings me to my primary point. Yes, STC technology was made to be easy to use and understand, but there's still logical cut-off point, beyond which where you just have to know about what the hell you're dealing with. There's not going to be some easy to understand manual that -anyone- can use to build a NUCLEAR REACTOR. If it was as simple as that, they'd have them in real life. And that's something that's real, don't even get me started on the believability of unskilled individuals being able to build things like Plasma Reactors, anti-grav technology, and Warp Drives, just because they can follow an instruction manual.

I should point out that in the 40k canon the vast majority of tech-priests do exactly that. They have no understanding of the scientific principles whatsoever and they basically just use rote memorisation to reproduce the same things over and over again. They chant a prayer and squirt some "sacred unguents" (oil) when a machine breaks. I'd find it much more believable that hereteks can figure out STC blueprints easily then the majority of the Admech. Hereteks are - after all - used to figuring things out and using their brain. Admech are used to not questioning anything and just memorising information. Therefore the logical cut off point should occur earlier for most Admech as compared to most Hereteks. Especially given the accomplishments of the notable Heretek groups (Logicians, Meritech clan, ...).

Citizen Philip said:

The STC is El Dorado, Atlantis, etc. It's not suppose to be found, ever. It's a reason to explore!

It's not supposed to be found in TT.

In a RPG, the time goes on and many things happen or could happen.

And I'm sure with time, a Rogue Trader could learn the secrets of an intact module for dumb people.