In the rules it states that when a Horde attacks, they gain all of their extra attacks from swift/lighting attack, dual wielding, etc. I personally think that because it is a massive amount of creatures mobbing you, the Horde should gain these extra attacks even after having moved, but the normal rules only allow for a single attack after having moved. In the horde section it never really clarifies one side or the other, so I am inclined to just give them their full attacks no matter what. But what do you guys think?

One more thing. It makes sense to me that if PC's are engaged in melee with a horde, the monsters in the back of the horde would still be able to fire their guns, as they would not be technically in the melee. Again, this is not clarified in the rules. So should I allow them to shoot as well?

Well, the rules make the horde's melee attacks sound almost automatic, given that they get one attack per adjacent foe, so it would make sense for the horde to get both ranged and melee attacks, though as GM I might shy away from directing the ranged attacks at foes in melee with the horde, but rather use them to fire on other targets.

My reading:

1) Hordes that are in melee get their attacks against everyone they are in melee range with, whether charging or not. Attacks gained through the Multiple Attack action requires a Full Action though, so it can't be used in the first round, sorry. The players don't get it either, it's just how charging works (which isn't very good). I would rather think about changing the charging rules so that anybody with Swift Attack or Lightning Attack can at least use Swift Attack while charging.

2) I don't PCs can't be shot at if they are locked in melee with a horde, unless it's a horde of Tyranid Rippers maybe.

Alex

Well if you want a rules specific reason hordes can't shoot and melee at the same time:

Once engaged in melee the character can only make attack actions with the "melee" type. So since a horde is treated as a single character once engaged it can't shoot at anyone.

As for a a fluff reason, once you get 20 guys (or even less) into combat with one it turns into a mass mob. Even if you thought to shoot something you probably couldn't even see who you wanted to shoot. Since in any horde we can assume it takes at least 20 horde-guys to get the extra 2d10 damage in any melee combat with a horde, at least 20 horde-ppl are actually attacking with melee. Many forces wouldn't indiscriminately shoot into their own troops (sure everybody always mentions the evil bad guys, just think though, the faster the guys up there die, the sooner the enemy gets to you!). Also theres the issue of getting 40 guys pysched up to actually go charging into the enemy. Most everyone in that mob is chomping at the bit and ready to drag, kick, punch, smash, and smack the enemy, Even if they aren't in range at first they will want to get there. Mob mentality is a hard thing to change to (its why mob mentality is an actual phrase), once a mob decides to do something it takes a lot of effort to change the mobs mind.

Yes, I kind of wish this was clarified in the as it happened in the first session of the game I was running.

I was going in with the thought that treating them as a single creature would work but that immediately broke down, obviously there was only one character who was actively seeking combat, so he got stuck in, as a single creature the mob would be locked in combat, couldn't shoot out of melee, attacks against it had a chance of hitting the person in melee etc.

Obviously this wouldn't do, so I figured it was locked for movement (I'd allow it to change shape to move up or away from things by a few meters and basically consider it as having not moved) could still shoot at PC that they weren't in melee with and there wasn't a chance of hitting the Assault Marine with fire.

I suppose if it was a very small horde or had a lot melee in it (say 1 PC per 10 mag) then i'd have a chance of hitting the melee guy it stopping them firing at other targets.

What did other people do?

Can't say I used any hordes with multiple attacks. On the one hand it does seem to make things like a big mob of orks a bit toothless if they are desperately throwing themselves into a headlong charge only to get a single attack with what, a 60% chance of hitting? On the other hand they can't be dodged so it represents one huge attack.

herichimo said:

This is wrong though. Page 360, first sentence under Hordes Attacking. They can do both at the same time.

How do I handle it? I envision the situation unfolding and decide ad hoc. If a horde doesn't have many members (say a mag 7 Termagant horde or a mag 14 Fire Warrior horde) in my vision of the scene, then they can't shoot while being trapped in melee. And shooting into melee rules will be applied too. When fighting a mag 30 Termagaunt or mag 60 Firewarrior horde, the horde can fire and can be fired without any chance for hitting the wrong guy or anything.

That too however gets modified by visiblity. If the whole thing takes place in somewhat narrow tunnels, the horde can't be seen as a whole and it will be more difficult to not dish out friendly fire.

I think any realistic formula would probably lead to a complex 2nd combat system and the horde system is supposed to be simple, so a lot will come down to the GM making up stuff on the fly.

Alex

Seems like my group is not the only one confused by these aspects.

Based on what is written here and the rules I would say that:

1. A charging horde can not benefit from multiple attacks (unless it has special traits that allow it do so).

2. A horde even if engaged in melee can be attacked as if not engaged, as the outskirts of the horde is targeted. Likewise they can still use ranged attacks against targets that are not engaged in melee with it.

3, Characters engaged by the horde can only use melee-actions as normal.

4. A horde can move through the space of single creatures that are smaller than it, but not opposing hordes.

5. Semi-Auto bursts, Full auto bursts and Blast effects against creatures locked in melee with a horde will also affect the horde. The horde will be considered the primary target for bursts, and at hits will be assigned depending on size (horde will likely take more hits).

Did I miss anything?

Friend of the Dork said:

Nope.

Hordes with multiple attacks (that are not on the charge) also can use their multiple attacks against every enemy they are in melee reange with. Good luck meleeing hormagaunt hordes with a mag of 20+.

Alex