Also, Hordes like a group of Fire Warriors don't have just fantastic BS (35 for the FWs). Even if you give them a ranged bonus from weapons, they have almost no chance at hitting an AM running into melee them to death (with Hard Target that's a -40 penalty to a base 35 BS). It's the same reason a Devastator can mostly just look on sadly as the Genestealer runs across the open field to rip open his face.

He can't win shootouts with Tau, or they are played very poorly.

A Horde of Fire Warriors can't hit him? Maybe, but they get a Magnitude bonus to hit and more than one attempt, so they'll likely end up giving him some of their medicine. And while your dear AM has Kraken ammo, which basically means 2 Mag damage per round (wooo impressive!), they shoot with Pulse rifles. Two salvos, and the AM is a pile of ashes.

And if you're talking about a monstruosity that gives +30 to hit, then I highly doubt that one or two Kraken rounds through the head will kill it. Make it very angry, maybe. But when that Hive Tyrant will get into melee with the AM, we'll see who rips the other one a new a**hole.

I'm not saying an AM can't do **** at range. I say it's completely delirious to say he's good at it. He has skills, yeah. But then again the Dev also has a WS of 40 and a Strength bonus of 8, so you can't say he sucks in melee either.

Anyway, team work. Really, stop giving a sh*t about who is the best, who kills the most, who can do everything and who can't. You've got awesome sauce guys with big guns and big swords, and they just gotta learn their strengths and weaknesses and play with it.

Brand said:

Quick question here: I'm new to the game and I was wondering where the -40 modifier for shooting at a running AM comes from? I can only find -20 for Hard Target.

Redemption NL said:

When you Run (pg. 243) you automatically give ranged attacks against you a -20 penalty because you're a moving target. So the AM either charges his enemy to attack instantly and tie them up in melee or uses Run or Tactical Advance (depending on the situation) if he can't close in a single round and wants to get into melee with an enemy.

He can't win shootouts with Tau, or they are played very poorly.

Yes, he can. Your typical AM will have a BS as good or better than your average Tau. Give him a decent weapon and he'll have a fair shot at winning.

Tau played to their full ability will simply wipe out any party, even one full of Devastators. Let me choose five Tau against your party of five Space Marines. You'll never know what hit you.

A Horde of Fire Warriors can't hit him? Maybe, but they get a Magnitude bonus to hit and more than one attempt, so they'll likely end up giving him some of their medicine. And while your dear AM has Kraken ammo, which basically means 2 Mag damage per round (wooo impressive!), they shoot with Pulse rifles. Two salvos, and the AM is a pile of ashes.

Magnitude bonus to hit? The Magnitude bonus is to hit THEM. Their advantage in numbers/strength is the inability to dodge their attacks, which doesn't matter when they have a 10% or less chance of hitting. And that small chance also means their semi-auto weapons aren't nearly as good as they normally are.

The AM doesn't need to sit back and ping shots at a Horde (though there's special ammo for that). He can easily get to them to engage or just blast them with grenades. He gets to pick his ammo based on the mission. If he's not looking at very long range fights (say, a mission to a jungle planet) and lots of "weaker" enemies around (aka Hordes) he'll opt for the Metal Storm clip.

And if you're talking about a monstruosity that gives +30 to hit, then I highly doubt that one or two Kraken rounds through the head will kill it. Make it very angry, maybe. But when that Hive Tyrant will get into melee with the AM, we'll see who rips the other one a new a**hole.

I'm not saying an AM can't do **** at range. I say it's completely delirious to say he's good at it. He has skills, yeah. But then again the Dev also has a WS of 40 and a Strength bonus of 8, so you can't say he sucks in melee either.

Most of the really big enemies like that (I was thinking the +20 of Tyranid Warriors, but whatever) want to get into melee. So the AM can safely peg them a few times, do a little damage, even help use up their Reactions, then take them on when they get close instead of running away. In melee? I'll take an experienced AM with awesome weapons and multiple Reactions over the Hive Tyrant. The Hive Tyrant is really deadly when it uses its psychic powers.

The AM is good at ranged attacks. Every Space Marine is. If your group has AMs that suck, then they're not being used to the fullest of their ability.

The Dev has limited attacks and the absolute worst WS of any SM. That hurts his attack and defensive ability (his Agility sucks, too). If he can land a blow, he can do some damage. But he's far, far, FAR behind the AM. He won't have the nifty Talents or special weapon that gives WS bonuses (which help both attack and defend), so he's stuck at 40 plus any size modifiers that MIGHT help.

Anyway, team work. Really, stop giving a sh*t about who is the best, who kills the most, who can do everything and who can't. You've got awesome sauce guys with big guns and big swords, and they just gotta learn their strengths and weaknesses and play with it.

It's not so awesome when you have to call for someone to save you if an enemy gets close. And teamwork is great when you can use it, but that's not always the case.

How can the Dev not have the appropriate weapon? A Chainsword only costs 5 Req! It's a third of the price for a Kraken or Metalstorm rounds Clip! If he doesn't have that, he's really "not being used to the fullest of their ability"...Throw in some Mag-Lock for 5 more Req to be sure, and you've got yourself a go.

What's more, the Dev doesn't have to have a sh*tty Agility and WS. Or if he does, then you should consider the difference in BS between him and the AM as non negligible as it has exactly the same source (i.e., Advance tables)! Plus a Dev is encouraged to have at least his Agi or WS not to suck, preferably his Agi maybe (Dodge can get up to a +20, and Dodge is useful at range, so all in all it's a safer bet to up his Agi).

Stormast said:

Tau are really a case where an Assault Marine is obviously not going to shoot it out with them, and by getting into melee with them he essentially becomes immune to them (due to their utter uselessness in melee). All the other specialties are going to take a long time to get into melee. The Devastator can probably ignore that and should be trying to blow them apart as quickly as possible, but everyone else is not going to make much more impression on the horde than the Assault Marine would have if it had stood and shot. The Apothecary is clearly intended to have melee as his secondary role (cheap advancement, gets various melee talents at higher ranks) and gets no ranged talents at all. Obviously I do take ranged weapons with Req, but only recently have I even considered improving my BS. The Tactical marine doesn't really get any stand out ranged talents until rank 4 (ok Mighty shot can be good, but against Tau Fire Warriors won't make the difference due to being a horde. He could take Bolter Mastery as well, but that is at the cost of Tactical Expertise. Marksman only matters if you frequently have fire fights at 200+ metres, and if you do you can just take better gear to compensate. Cleanse and Purify is nice, but with the range of flame weapons you are kind of committing yourself to melee at some point... as our Devastator has discovered against Tyranids). After Rank 4 then yes, it does look like the Tactical can get some good ranged talents which will put some noticable distance between him and the Assault Marine at range, but it still leaves almost every other Specialty being on par with the Assault Marine in ranged (aside from slightly cheaper BS advances).

Now, we don't have AM who do well in ranged, but that is because the players have chosen not to spend their Req on decent ranged weapons. They could have done, as still afforded that useful power weapons (even if they tend to focus on chain weapons) but they have chosen not too. Instead they tend to give their points away. But they know they have that choice and it is only player choice that prevents them from doing so.

And no, the Devastator doesn't have to have **** WS or agility. He can choose to advance them. However, even if he does he will be left drastically behind. Melee relies primarily on Talents. Yes, you can get decent WS (my Apothcary doesn't have too bad WS. Not great but good) but if you are stuck with one attack you are seriously hampered (as our Librarian discovered. When he got his second attack appeared his utility massively increased in combat). Against hordes you get to attack one. You probably do some damage, but compared to someone with multiple attacks you are seriously left behind. Against elites and the like they will often dodge or parry. Yes, teamwork can reduce this (burning through reactions), but people with multiple attacks can do this by themselves (and it is far harder to gang up with Melee than with ranged, as ranged specialists are often in melee against their will and so get less chance to gang up. In ranged combat you just choose who to shoot at).

Brand said:

Ah thanks, missed that one.

Stormast said:

You need a master-crafted weapon for that +10 WS bonus. It's doable, but that's less Req available for things like specialty ammo that the Dev often needs. Some missions it's fine, others it's not. The cheapest option is a master-crafted Chainsword, which is 15 Req if you add the mag-lock and it won't make make you insanely deadly in melee, just give a bit of a boost to defense. And the use of heavy weapons takes away the ability to use defenses like the Storm Shield.

Unless he blows a ton of XP on them or gets some nice armor boosts, the Dev is looking at WS/Agi of at best 50. Likely lower. Maybe give him 10 more points if he's been training dodge (20 if he's really experienced). The AM in my party is running around with a dodge chance of 78% and a parry chance of roughly 84% (at minimum) to over 100% if certain Talents apply. The BS differences are different because the AM, like the Dev, can get lots of tasty bonuses from range, size, auto fire, etc - the bonuses aren't tied into innate knowledge but rather the weapons you use, the opponents you face, and the battlefield situation.

I agree on the Agility. It's more useful, but since it's also insanely expensive a Dev won't be upping it much (or WS at all) if he wants to take any other Advances. Two agility advances are over 2,000 XP for the Dev.

I was talking about a Chainsword for the +10 to parry, not to hit.

But really, I do believe that 50 Agility is really not lost on any Dev. You can easily start with 45-ish (the only stat you absolutely need to be high is BS, maybe Per but it can be lower), and see, we're talking 50% chance to Dodge already...Granted, it's expensive, but Agility rocks and is useful, especially when you want to fight at range. The Dev has lots of XP to spend outside killy Talents, whereas the AM, although they absolutely kick asses and guts out of their targets, do have a more pre-determined path...So YMMV about "not having XP to "lose" by buying Agi advances".

Oh, and about ranged bonuses, I do know that an AM benefits from the same bonuses as the Dev. BUT...To get a good range, he has to Req a Bolter, plus likely some Kraken rounds as you pointed out: 20 Req...See what you said about the poor Chainsword

AND the Dev can negate a certain number of penalties (like, those from range, those from a Called Shot...), which effectively gives him "bonuses" to hit. Wait, no, "it's even more better", because negating maluses can "effectively" get you over +60...

So, see, everyone has his own field. And give a Lascannon to a Dev and to an AM, and see the Dev laugh.

Bolters are just as cheap as Chainswords. If you presume that every non Assault Marine purchases a chainsword for parrying use then essentially they cancel each other out as Req purchases when comparing specialities. And yes, then you if you are buying special ammunition it adds up, but again, that is the same for AM and non AM.

I don't think the contention is that Assault Marines are equal to Devastators in ranged, but instead that an Assault Marine can hold their own in ranged combat (especially when compared to non-Devastators) while a Devastator becomes extremely mediocre if forced into close combat.

Stormast said:

It's about a 20% chance of rolling such a stat without applying modifiers from gene-seed, so not really that easy.

But I agree about the negation of penalties. Range, firing into melee and called shots (and hence cover) can all be mooted by the Dev.

Edit: I don't think it's fair to label the AM as at least 3 times better than the Dev (and indeed the tac to be honest) in melee (3 attacks, 3 reactions, host of melee talents and good WS)

However, I'd also consider the Dev (and the tac, in all probability) at least twice as good at ranged combat than the AM.

Both have their niches, and as long as players are playing as a team, it's kinda moot. 'My PC is better than your PC' is kinda silly. Both are also the premier players within those niches, which to my mind is indicative that neither deserves 'more', unless every other class is addressed.

borithan said:

And my point is that they do not suck that much compared to others. So it all evens out.

But hey.

Stormast said:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I stand by my assessment of the rules as written, and I'm just glad the tweaks my group uses allow everyone to be on roughly equal footing when it comes to kicking @$$ and chewing bubblegum.

yes they did survive but when some reinforcments arrivied. There was 2 kia the tactical marine and the techmarine.the ap and the assult were in critical conditions.