Hi i'm a new gm and the issue from my players was why we cannot use a firearm in melee when fighting with the other hand a melle weapon??In the rules it says no you can't is this ok or is there an errta for this??

Rakados said:

By the rules, all you can do is fire a single shot from a Pistol-type weapon. Most people explain it away as a size issue and only pistols can be moved around and aimed in melee combat. Not only are you limited to just a Standard Attack, but you don't even gain any range bonuses. An enemy two steps away grants a +30 bonus. If he turns your direction and waves a weapon at you, then you get no bonus.

At the very least, I'd allow Pistol weapons to be used normally, but then I'm not fond of the melee-over-ranged mindset that so many have. The rules as-is make it horribly lethal for ranged characters to let anyone get anywhere close to them. That's all well and good if we're talking about the Tau commander the team has been sent to kill, but it sucks for the group's Devastator or other ranged-focused character.

Brand said:

On the other hand the rules as-is make it horribly lethal for everyone to get shot at by a Dev and his HB (pre-errata Rules)!

The vulnerability to meele attacks is the price a Dev has to pay for his overpowered ranged attacks. Dev for range, Assault Marines for meele and Tacs for everything inbetween. Otherwise it would be stupid to take any class except Dev. The key is to work together as a team. The Dev shoots everything which crosses the horizon and if something is getting throuh and treatens him the Assault Marine rushes to his side and defends the Dev. No PC schould be able to fight alone against all odds.

By the way, this reflects reality. A HB has the same proportions to a SM as a GPMG has to a normal soldier. No one could use this in meele. And for smaller Weapons our martial arts instructor in the army always told us:"If someone who attacks you with a knife and knows how to use it comes within 10 meters, don't try to shoot him you haven't got time to aim, take some evasive action...at a pinch RUN AWAY!"

I've gone over this again and again. The AM can grab a lascannon and kill the Dev at range. The Dev can't do anything to the AM in close unless he's a specific character build. Melee, being both an attack and defense as well as canceling out the ability to fire a gun, is more powerful unless you run all of your encounters in wide open plains.

I'll grant you the HB is unwieldy in melee, but the rule affects regular Bolters, too. They're practically the same size as the Bolt Pistol. And why does being in melee mean I can only squeeze the trigger once instead of two or three times? It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with limiting ranged attacks.

Also, you mention the Dev and HB (which is nowhere nearly as powerful now). I'll tell you what. We'll have a duel. We can be in melee and I'll even let you use the Heavy Bolter to full effect. After I hit you with my Thunder Hammer, it'll all be over, anyway.

Brand said:

We also trained combat shooting with small arms in my army time and of course you don't shoot only one well placed shot, but two. This is double-tapping and the intention is to stop the target with the first bullet and to kill it with a second headshot. In practice you haven't got any time to aim for the second shot so you only use this technique to deliver 2 shots in the same direction until the recoil kicks in. This increases the hit probability in a CQB-situation so at least one bullet finds it's target. For DW this would mean we need a new automatic/semiautomatic rule for meele combat, where the hit probability is so low you will only hit with one shot regardless how many you have fired.

I think the only-one-shot-in-meele-ruIe is merley an abstraction to save us unnecessary dice rolling and wasting of ammunition.

Rifles, carbines and even SMGs are to long for close combat. Someone needs to be trained to grab a pistol out of your hand but even a rookie can block a long arm, by simply running into you. After you have lost sight and the enemy is in grappling range even the best soldier can never acquire the target again. Your only chance will be to fall back so you can aim your weapon again, but a trained fighter won't let you.

For your last post: You can't use the Thunderhammer against Hordes as effectively as a HB. And here we have some trade-off again, but I must admit the post errata Thunderhammer is to overpowered for his Req. It needs to be around 50 points.

I'm not referring to trying the double-tap in melee. If you wanted to really be accurate when it comes to the rules, not even just firing two shots at range is a double-tap because you didn't take the Aim action. Firing a gun is basically just pointing at a target and pulling the trigger; if you want to model the way soldiers work in the real world, you'll want to always use an Aim action first unless you're doing something like Suppressing Fire. The current rules for Aiming are somewhat off, in my opinion, but as you say much of the game is an abstraction. It just happens to work out in some things' favor more than others.

I'm not arguing about rifles, but there's not a lot of difference in size between the Basic- and Pistol-type Bolter. They both have short barrels and should be about equally efficient (or inefficient) in melee. I find it odd that a Bolter is considered too big to be shot in melee, but you can slap a big knife on it and use it with no drawbacks.

Actually, depending on the character, the Thunder Hammer can match or even beat the HB for killing Hordes. It's just not as good right out of the gate. Give that TH to an Assault Marine with all the nice Talents like Lightning Attack, Preternatural Speed, Thunder Charge, etc. and you'll see a dead Horde very quickly. Gaining an extra hit for every 2 DoS is very nasty when added to the ability to make a lot of attacks.

Brand said:

You ALWAYS aim when you shoot in a combat situation. This due to the mere fact you don't want to hit your buddies. In DW this intuitve aiming is already calculated in, as the real hit probability without aiming is much lower. In Vietnam only 1 Bullet out of 10000 killed a VC! Today most soldiers are better trained and they score more hits but only if they aim for the target, not by shooting blindly.

I agree that a Bolt-Pistol has nearly the size of a SMG for an SM, but there must be some reason you lug around a semiautomatic weapon if your automatic Weapon has all the same benefits. SF don't use their pistols as backup incase the rifle jams, but for CQB.

Well I'm sure most people will find it hard to shoot a rifle while someone is tackling you to the ground.

Same thing goes for pistols. People who actually know how to shoot pistols know its just as hard to aim and hit a target with a pistol. (Every pistol I've ever seen and fired needs to be held at the end of a fully extended arm with sights in line with the shooter's eye to get any reliable accuracy. Sure I could shoot from the hip, but if I was shooting anything farther than 5 ft away I'd probly never hit it.) In close quarters combat you don't have time to aim. You just point your arm at the enemy and pull the trigger.

Kain

Of course you always aim in the real world. That's what I'm saying. The rules as-written are basically point-and-shoot. That's why the actual Aim action is totally separate and why I agree you can't aim in melee. That's why the semi- and full-auto modes get a bonus to hit; just pointing a gun and firing isn't as likely to score a hit as pointing and firing multiple times. When you aim, then things are different.

Also, keep in mind that, with the new errata rules, neither the pistol or regular Bolter are automatic weapons.

herichimo

I don't think anyone is suggesting you get to aim in melee. But, by the rules, aiming is totally separate from just pulling the trigger. And why should you only be able to pull the trigger once?

Brand said:

You actually can Aim in Melee

Brand said:

Yeah but the rules somehow include the fact of aiming in your precision. So it's not so simple to just let people shoot in Melee as if nothing happened. And you should re-read one of Kain's posts, where he explains that no more than one shoot will ever hit the target in Melee. Here, you can only do single shot, but that's an abstraction (one more). Consider giving Point Blank bonuses if you want, but I wouldn't: you surely have never had to shoot while in CQB...CQB is dynamic, and the guy in front of you is not gonna wait for you to point your gun at him before he hits. If you're less than 1 or 2 meters from a guy with a gun, you have like 90% chance to disarm him before he shoots at you...So the good idea is not to shoot like you always do (the Semi-Auto setting), more like try to land the one hit you can fire on the target, and pray it hits, because if it doesn't, the guy will be hackign at you...

Brand said:

Aim in the real world = shooting without aim action in DW

Careful aim (hold your breath, concentrate, shoot/breath out) in the real world = aim action in DW

The aiming is already calculated in the Ballistic Skill Test, this is the reason why someone who hasn't the appropriate weapons training (doesn't know how to aim properly) suffers a -20 penalty to shoot.

In reality you can shoot more than once in meele, in fact you have to, but most of the time only one shot hits. This DW rule HELPS you to spare your ammo. If you want this more complicated than take -20 penalty for fring multiple shots in meele (this was a house rule that was more realistic but turned out to be useless) and see if you even hit with ONE shot.

I consider that seeing as players can only get off TWO shots from a semi-automatic bolt pistol in a... is it 6 second turn... that there is already aiming going on. The 'aim' rule represents extra effort.

The idea of using longarms in melee is a bizarre one to me. It's simply not viable. And it would pretty much moot the use of pistols. Who'd bother using one any more? Maybe a bolter is only 'a bit' longer than a pistol, but where do you want to draw the line in distinguishing which weapons are 'ok' to fire in melee. And it may only be 'a bit' longer, but there's a lot more there to grab or bind [pin] to the side, making the weapon moot.

Pistols in melee and not longarms also fits with the trope established in TT.

"Sir, I would like to say that my Lascannon is only "a bit" longer than your bolter. Therefore I will gladly present you with one point blank Lascannon shoot in the face. Sit, would you kindly?"

Where's the goddam 'like' button?

Aim in the real world = shooting without aim action in DW

Careful aim (hold your breath, concentrate, shoot/breath out) in the real world = aim action in DW

Um, no. Aiming is aiming. Shooting in DW is pointing at your target and pulling the trigger. That's not what soldiers in the real world do. What you call "careful aiming" is basically broken into two types - the Half-Action Aim that's like what soldiers do in combat situations and the Full-Action Aim that's seems more like the type used by snipers.

Watch the Ultramarines movie. You won't see SMs taking two-handed grips and aiming down the barrel when they kill Chaos Space Marines.

The aiming is already calculated in the Ballistic Skill Test, this is the reason why someone who hasn't the appropriate weapons training (doesn't know how to aim properly) suffers a -20 penalty to shoot.

The -20 represents someone who has no experience with a gun and isn't at all accurate when snapping off quick shots (or at all, since even a Full Aim only brings it to -0).

In reality you can shoot more than once in meele, in fact you have to, but most of the time only one shot hits. This DW rule HELPS you to spare your ammo. If you want this more complicated than take -20 penalty for fring multiple shots in meele (this was a house rule that was more realistic but turned out to be useless) and see if you even hit with ONE shot.

If the rules were to help you spare ammo, we wouldn't have weapons that with 10 or more RoF. A trained range specialist is looking at +60 or more even without the range bonus. Two or more shots is immensely important because most melee enemies will be able to dodge your first shot. That's why I just ignore the penalty and allow pistols to be used normally.

A character who isn't taking an aim action is firing pretty much blindly?

Why would a marine pull the trigger without lining his weapon up. That's... bizarre.

Look at the rate of fire of weapons. 2 shots in 6 seconds? Or 3? With a semi-automatic weapon. And they're not aimed? What are the marines doing in the rest of that time if not at least momentarily lining up the weapon. The rate of fire is heavily indicative of snap-aimed combat shooting, at exactly the kind of rate of fire you'd expect to see in real life. If characters were just blazing away, they'd be getting off at least 10 shots a round.

If we want to view the UM movie as an accurate source, how many bolt shells were they firing per second?

If marines weren't at least vaguely aiming their weapons down the sight rail, why don't you need an aim action in order to get the +10 for the motion predictor or bonuses for the other sights that don't require an aim action?

How about overwatch and suppressive fire. That's snap-shooting and more like the blazing away that you're indicating is standard procedure. And the game imposes a -20 penalty on such shooting.

Brand said:

Do what you like it's your game and as long as your player's think the same everything is ok.

Has anyone noticed the Bolters in the Ultramarines Movie eject more shells as the firing sound would suggest?

A character who isn't taking an aim action is firing pretty much blindly?

Did I say that? They're pointing at an enemy and pulling the trigger. Maybe firing from the hip. It's a combination of instinct and experience. If they were actively shouldering the weapon and looking down the barrel to line up the sight with the target (like modern-day soldier do), they would be taking an Aim action first.

Why would a marine pull the trigger without lining his weapon up. That's... bizarre.

That's 40k. Look at virtually all of the fluff, be it pictures, movies, even books. Sometimes characters aim, but often they just raise their guns and blaze away at their enemies. If you want absolute realism, this is definitely NOT the game for you.

Look at the rate of fire of weapons. 2 shots in 6 seconds? Or 3? With a semi-automatic weapon. And they're not aimed? What are the marines doing in the rest of that time if not at least momentarily lining up the weapon. The rate of fire is heavily indicative of snap-aimed combat shooting, at exactly the kind of rate of fire you'd expect to see in real life. If characters were just blazing away, they'd be getting off at least 10 shots a round.

Maybe they're dodging. Or shouting commands. Maybe 40k weapons just have incredibly slow firing rates (a difference of even a shot or two per round is pretty big and is seen with otherwise similar weapons). We talk about abstractions in the game all the time. Maybe that RoF is an abstraction for how many shots the SM can get off in an average round with everything going to hell around him.

If we want to view the UM movie as an accurate source, how many bolt shells were they firing per second?

A lot. And now we're back around to another topic - just what IS an accurate source? You can easily find contradicting sources for a lot of what makes up 40k.

If marines weren't at least vaguely aiming their weapons down the sight rail, why don't you need an aim action in order to get the +10 for the motion predictor or bonuses for the other sights that don't require an aim action?

The motion predictor can still miss. Whatever you've got the gun pointed at when you use the motion predictor is what you'll be chasing with all of those rounds. Hopefully it's an enemy, but even with that +10 and any other bonuses, you can still fail to hit your target. It's also used as a sight, so in effect you are using it in a way as an aiming action, just in addition to your normal Full Action burst of fire. That's where the +10 comes in - you're trying to sight the target and blaze away with every round you've got. Personally, I think the motion predictor is a bit unbalanced since a simple +10 bonus usually isn't worth wasting 20+ rounds of ammo.

What other sights are there? The telescopic sight requires the Aim action. The preysense sight gives no bonus to hit from aiming and just lets you see better in darkness if you look down it. The red-dot laser sight (provides you with a nice dot to let you know where you're aiming). Also, I know sights work differently in our world, but I remember reading the 40k red-dot sight as being an actual laser that paints the target, sort of like the Tau markerlight.

How about overwatch and suppressive fire. That's snap-shooting and more like the blazing away that you're indicating is standard procedure. And the game imposes a -20 penalty on such shooting.

No, that's firing randomly into an area to keep people pinned down, not pointing at a target and opening fire like a normal attack. If you hit someone, great, but that's not your main goal and that's why you get the -20 penalty to hit with Suppressing Fire. With Overwatch, you're watching a certain area and the errata says nothing about taking a -20 penalty. If you use it as Suppressing Fire you'll get the penalty because you're trying to pin down targets, but there's nothing about the -20 penalty to attack if you just make a full- or semi-auto burst (although you can still pin down targets even with these).

Has anyone noticed the Bolters in the Ultramarines Movie eject more shells as the firing sound would suggest?

I didn't notice it the first time I watched, though I wouldn't doubt it. There were some things like that that really stood out, but I still thought it was a decent movie considering the budget the creators had to work with.

The type of shooting in deathwatch considered standard shooting would still need aiming. Its just not as precise and measured of an aiming process as you'd do if you used an aim action.

A soldier is trained to use his rifles sights all the time, no military training I've ever gone through had anything to do with hip-shooting. Never. Granted sometimes it might happen on the battlefield but as one would expect you're not going to hit anything unless its right on top of you. I've posted before: if your barrel is only 1mm off your intended aim line your shot will deviate over 8inches at 100 yards.

When shooting normaly in deathwatch you are sighting down the barrel, like real life. Example: three guys come around the corner 30 yards away, because of their close proximity you don't have a lot of time to deal with them. You still bring your rifle up to your shoulder and sight down the barrels lining up the rear and front sights. This has become second nature to you from your training. You quickly superimpose the target over your two sights and pull the trigger, bam bam bam.

An example of the deathwatch aim action would be: Now you are in a field and you've crept up to 100 yards from a machine gun nest firing out at your allies. You can only hit his head, which at 100 yards is smaller than the tip of your pinky. You need to hit the shooter with your first shot so you carefully line up the target, ensuring the front sight post is centered in your rear sights ghost ring and the target you want to hit is just sitting on top of the front post. You correct for range and distance and control your breathing. Then you gradually pull the trigger and take your shot.

Both of these examples are aiming, one is quick and dirty the other is more time consuming but more accurate.

Firing "from the hip" relies more on just generally pointing your weapon at the enemy without ensuring its actually lined up at them. This is harder to do with rifles than pistols as the two handed nature of the rifle is not as natural as just pointing the hand your pistol is in at the enemy. But either way, the accuracy needed to get bullets to hit targets is almost impossible when firing from the hip. And if a person is right on top of you, close enough to punch you in the face, getting the rifle pionted at him is both much harder for you (length of weapon), and easier for him to avoid (just sidestep away from the business end of the weapon).

Soldiers do not charge into battle with jetpacks or chainsaws. Soldiers do not fight demons with massive hammers. Soldiers do not shrug off bullets thanks to their protective force fields. Soldiers do not channel psychic energy to kill their enemies.

Space Marines do all of that and more.

I'll say it again: This Is Not Real Life. What soldiers do in real life is not the same as genetically-altered, power-suit-wearing super soldiers in a fictional future setting. If you were doing any real aiming every time you pulled the trigger for a shot, we wouldn't need an Aim action and you'd be getting a bonus to hit.

I could quote pages by the dozen where SMs just point and fire. I could post dozens of pictures. I could point you to the movie. SMs do not operate like a modern-day unit. Some things are the same but it's still very different. It's sci-fi with a heavy emphasis on the fiction.

Brand said:

As this is not real life as you say why must PC be able to shoot more than once at meele range? Only because they can do it in real life which obviously isn't accepted as reference by you? As you wrote this is not real and in this not-real-life-universe soldiers can only shoot once in meele, period!

Though the main reason why this abstraction is used and has its reference in real life was already discussed, but a simple game balancing reason is that it would simply be stupid to use a chainsaw without Swift Attack in meele when you can always blast your opponents with up to 4 (Bolter Drill) shots.

I guess you play DW with the old Bolter stats (like I do), if this is the case, then tell me, what the Assault Marine (or any other class) is good for when a Dev can manage everything by himself, including meele combat?

This is W40K and bloody meele fights are canon!

As this is not real life as you say why must PC be able to shoot more than once at meele range? Only because they can do it in real life which obviously isn't accepted as reference by you? As you wrote this is not real and in this not-real-life-universe soldiers can only shoot once in meele, period!

It's simple game balance. Melee and ranged combat are very different forms of combat, and since everyone is deadly at range (much of the lethality is based on weapons compared to skill with melee deadliness) it's unbalanced when you've got someone useless in melee. An Assault Marine can kill you at range or in melee. If he wants to get close, he can be in your face almost instantly and you likely won't be able to hit him while he's getting there. The Dev just has to run away if something bad comes his way. By the official rules, anyway.

Though the main reason why this abstraction is used and has its reference in real life was already discussed, but a simple game balancing reason is that it would simply be stupid to use a chainsaw without Swift Attack in meele when you can always blast your opponents with up to 4 (Bolter Drill) shots.

Because you likely won't hit with all four shots (no range bonus, no ability to aim, etc.) and you'll do a lot more damage with the chainsword unless you've got certain ammo. Even the lowly chainsword blows away the bolter in damage output thanks to the SM's Strength. When you look at even bigger melee weapons, it just gets silly. The only things that can really compare in damage to a Power Fist or similar weapon are the better pistols, and their RoF is not very high (two shots at most).

I guess you play DW with the old Bolter stats (like I do), if this is the case, then tell me, what the Assault Marine (or any other class) is good for when a Dev can manage everything by himself, including meele combat?

No, it's a mix of original and errata stats.

The Dev can't handle everything. Even allowing him to use pistols normally in melee as I do just makes him a decent melee combatant, not unstoppable. The AM will still easily have the advantage thanks to powerful melee attacks and multiple Reactions. Only if he's one of a few (really broken) builds will the Dev have the upper hand (mostly if he's a Space Wolf or Blood Angel).

This is W40K and bloody meele fights are canon!

Absolutely! But so are tank fights and heavy weapons. The game shouldn't be completely about melee.

Brand said:

This must be the first time I hear that the AM has the advantage. You can't compare how much damage a character can deal in one specific combat situation. You have to look at the overall performance when you speak of balance. A Dev is able to kill much more enemies at range than an AM is able to kill in meele, so it's still the Dev who has the advantage and it is only fitting that there is one combat situation where he is more helpless than most other classes. It' like stone scissors paper, there is a time when everbody finds it's master.

And there is one important thing you forget: An AM may be deadly at close range but not as a Rank 1 PC, the Dev on the other hand has his HB from the start.

Kain McDogal said:

Who says it's only one situation? Again, the AM can kill the Dev at range. The Dev will almost never challenge the AM in melee. Melee and ranged work very differently. Ranged lethality is based almost entirely on the weapon; only the weapon affects the number of attacks and damage you get (apart from a tiny boost from one or two Talents). Melee efficiency is entirely on the user. His or her abilities determine the number of attacks, how good of a defense can be brought to bear, and it has a large factor in the damage (an average SM will be adding 12-17 damage very quickly just from Strength). Getting hit by a Lascannon hurts whether an AM or Dev fired it. Facing a Thunder Hammer could be only a slight challenge (if used by a Dev) or it could mean you're dead (AM).

Also, an experienced AM can actually top the Dev's Horde-killing ability. Lots of attacks + more hits from DoS + Wrathful Descent + Talents = lots and lots of dead Hordes.

Why should anyone be helpless? No one is helpless in ranged combat, so why should anyone be helpless in melee? Again, the AM and everyone else can kill at range because most of the lethality is tied up in the weapon, not the user.

The AM is still good at Rank 1 and the HB is not that great now. It's good but not the weapon of absolute destruction it once was After only a few missions, the AM will have even more melee attacks and extra Reactions.