When an observer unit uses the Artillery Strike ability when the artillery unit has LOS to its target you are allowed to make a "Direct fire" shot instead of an "Indirect fire" shot, does this mean that you can either make a "sustained attack aka SHOOT+SHOOT" or a "SHOOT+MOVE" action with the artillery unit?

Quote from Operation Cyclone rulebook page 4: From "Indirect Fire"

"" The unit with the Artillery Strike ability is called an "observer." It is the observer that triggers the shot. So, the observer unit must have a clear line of sight to the target (if the artillery does have line of sight, it makes a direct shot instead). ""

Gian said:

Why would you use a observer unit to call in a artillery strike when the artillery unit can see the target?

I read the rules to say, artillery unit can't see the target you use a observer unit as long as they can see the target. If the artillery unit can see the target, then it activates and attacks on its own, it doesnt use a observer unit.

Yup, thats what the rules say, if shooter can see the target then you perform direct shooting.

Dcal 12: I know that i dont need to activate the observer squad to be able to shoot with the artillery unit if it has LOS. The question is if i am allowed to do it anyway so that i can take advantage of a dubbel move.

The reason for doing this would be that if you are allowed to preform a "SHOOT+SHOOT" action with the artillery unit, becasue it has LOS, you could do a dubbel attack. First you preform a "SHOOT+Artillery Strike" with the observer unit (that is within range to attack) and then you would preform a sustained attack (SHOOT+SHOOT) with the artillery unit.

Major Mishap: What are you saying, am i allowed to do a sustained attack or not?

Any model can Shoot - Shoot when firing direct.

You can't Shoot - Shoot with artillery receiving orders from an observer, basically 1 action is used to receive the order. Page 4, Indirect Fire, "The indirect shot uses both of the units actions". The last sentance of the example verify's this.

You can't use indirect fire if the shooter can see its target. Page 4, Indirect Fire, first line.

I guess that the superseding rule is on page 7 that states that the Artillery Strike ability makes the artillary unit preform an "Indirect Fire" shot regardless of LOS, but it then tells you to see the artillery rules which i think confuses things because they have added text that if the artillery unit has LOS it then preforms a "Diirect Fire" shot instead.

Quote from Operation Cyclone page 7: From "Artillary Strike"

"" If you make an Artillery Strike, the unit using this ability is deactivated, while the artillery unit is immediately activated and performs an indirect shot (see the “Artillery Rules”). ""

Quote from Operation Cyclone page 4: From "Indirect Fire"

"" The unit with the Artillery Strike ability is called an “observer.” It is the observer that triggers the shot. So, the observer unit must have a clear line of sight to the target (if the artillery does have line of sight, it makes a direct shot instead) .

Nowhere in the rules can i find that you arent allowed to use the "Artillery Strike" ability if the artillery unit has LOS, but it does say that the observer must have LOS to be allowed to use the "Artillery Strike" ability.

As i see it i am allowed to make a sustained attack with the artillery unit when issued by the "Artillery Strike" ability as long as both the observer and the artillery unit has LOS.

A'h, I see what you are getting at now, I think You want to call Artillery Strike with an observer but the mech to fire a Dirct shot on sustained, yes?

If so, you can't do that. Page 7 Artillery Strike. "If you make an Artillery Strike....the artllery unit immediately perfoms an indirect shot, see artillery rules"

If it's an Observer that's activating the Artillery, then the Artillery is performing an Indirect Shot and thus it cannot make a sustained (shoot+shoot) attack. If the Observer uses the Artillery Strike ability, the artillery piece can only perform a SINGLE shoot action with all its weapons, with no possibility of sustained ifre or movement afterwards.

The only question I have is if you can call for an indirect attack even if the artillery has LOS to the target. The reasons to do that could be: to ignore corner cover or to act twice in a row which could be advantageous if the artillery's secondary weapons have range to other targets.

You can't do that, first line of the Indirect Fire rule.

Could you post it? I don't really see it. The only thing I see on this is in the Direct Fire rules where it states: "If the unit that carries an artillery weapon can see its target, it takes a direct shot ." But I don't really see that as necessarily saying that it MUST take a direct shot, only that it CAN and it's the most logical option 95% of the time.

To make an "Indirect" shot means that an artillery unit shoots even when it doesnt have LOS with the help of an observer and it seems resonable to me that that would result in a dubbel action penalty for the artillery unit for not seeing the target. But it is clerly written under the "Indirect Fire" rules that if the artillery unit has LOS it does a "Direct" shot instead, which i would say supports my statement that if both the observer and the artillery unit has LOS the artillery unit can preform a "Direct" shot and follow the rules for that.

I cant find that it says anywhere in the rules that the "Artillery Strike" ability may only be used if the artillery unit doesnt have LOS nor that it says anything about that it must/may only be an "Indirect" shot, hence the rule for the "Artillery Strike" ability does direct one to the artillery rules where it says that if the artillery unit has LOS it does a "Direct" shot instead.

Well, again and again and again the rules say that when the Observers activate the artillery unit, it performs an Indirect Shot and is deactivated. I don't know where you could infer that the artillery could perform a Direct Shot instead (and thus Sustained Fire), even if it had LOS. The Artillery Strike ability is inextricably tied to Indirect Shots.

Loophole Master said:

As you quoted RAW, if a target can be seen it must be a direct shot, "..it takes a direct shot" no, can, may or chose is written it the rule, there is no choice if you want to fire at a target in LOS.

Now when you go to the first line of Indirect Fire, it now stipulates that if you canot see the target and an observer can then"...you can perform an indirect shot" "if the unit that's carrying artillery can't see it's target, but another with Artillery Strike can, you can perform an indirect shot"

Again, the wording is explicit that to fire indirect you musn't be able to see the taget with the shooter, again, no can or maybe's to give you an option.

Sorry if i am annoying you Loophole Master, could you please explain why they would then write the following sentence

"" (if the artillery does have line of sight, it makes a direct shot instead). ""

under the "Indirect Fire" rules for artillery if the "Artillery Strike" ability is inextricably tied to Indirect Shots

Gian said:

You're not annoying me at all. If we're not open to discussing the rules objectively, what are we here for?

Yes, the rules say that if the artillery has LOS, it makes a Direct Shot instead. So that means you have to use the Direct Fire rules, instead. So look over at the Direct Shot rules, where do you see that an Observer can activate a Direct Shot from an artilley piece? You can't, which means that if the artillery is going to take a Direct Shot, the Observer squad has nothing to do with that.

And at this point I'd like to arrive at the conclusion that you can't, in fact, make an indirect attack against a target you have LOS to. I was just exploring the possibility, cause it's in my nature to do so, but I have come to the conclusion that it's a silly exploit that bends the rules beyond the breaking point.

Ok artillery units can only do 1 of 2 things when shooting direct or indirect.

Direct Fire would be just like any other walker must have LOS and weapons are the same except that artillery weapons have a minimum and maximum range and have to be reloaded. There is no requirement for an observer for these shots.

Indirect Fire requires an unit with Artillery Strike whether a command squad or an observer squad. When the unit squad has LOS of a unit and the Walker does not it can us one action to call an artillery strike from the walker. The squad with artillery strike uses one action to call the ability and is deactivated when the walker is activated.The walker can perform its indirect shot at the unit the artillery is call on and can shoot all other weapons to another unit if the nonartillery weapons have LOS and range. This is described at the bottom right of Page 5 where it said Artillery Recap These shots require 2 actions for steadying the aim, so the walker cannot do sustain shooting or move after firing.

Artillery Strike - can only be used for Indirect Shots not Direct Shots. On page 4 Artillery Strike is only listed as being used under Indirect Shot if you could call a direct shot then it would be under the direct shot section. It even says it on page 7 that "Once the artillery unit has performed its indirect shot, it is immediately deactivated." this means that observers can only call indirect shots.

Classifications of Direct and Indirect shot is described as following on the top page 4 under each type of shot.

Direct - "If the unit that carries an artillery weapon can see its target (it has clear line of sight), it takes a direct shot."

Indirect - "If the unit that’s carrying the artillery weapon can’t see its target, but another unit with the Artillery Strike ability can see it, you can perform an indirect shot.

That's all that it says there is no "well it doesn't say I can't so there for I can." If that is what you are trying to get at. You cannot argue a Positive with a Negative.

I concur on all points.

Thanks. I referenced every point i brought out where it is on in the rulebook copy and pasted direct from the PDF.

I agree to, it's what I've been saying

Maybe it was how you were saying it not that you weren't saying it. I got a little confused for a sec so thats why i wrote that up.

Your reply made good clarification ark, all in one post rather than spread over several.

I am not trying to argue a positive with a negative nor am I trying to exploit and bend the rules in anyway, I myself hate when people do that because it ruins the game.
I am just trying to understand the rules as they are written, if there is something that contradict its self and therefore doesn’t make sense, I am ok with that, but I don’t feel that this is the case here.
My original purpose with asking this question was that at the time I felt that I didn’t understood what was allowed or not. But I do think after reading the rules over and over again that I have found how they are supposed to be read.

To me it seems that you guys are combining the rules that apply to the ability with the rules that apply to the actual shooting with the artillery unit (this was what I was originally doing and the reason for my confusion), which I now think are to separate things and should be treated as so.

If I break it down to what actually applies to the ability and what applies to the artillery fire, perhaps it makes more sense and you perhaps see it as I do.

“Artillery Strike” ability rules:
• A unit with this ability can call for an artillery attack.
• A unit with Artillery Strike is called an “observer”.
• A unit can only act as an observer if it has the “Artillery Strike” ability.
• Using an Artillery Strike costs one action.
• The unit using the ability is deactivated, while the artillery unit is immediately activated and performs an indirect shot (see the “Artillery Rules”).
• In order to unleash such an attack, the unit with the Artillery Strike ability must have a clear line of sight on an enemy unit.
• The observer unit must have a clear line of sight to the target.

These are the conditions that are stated in the rules that need to be met to be eligible to use the Artillery Strike ability. Nowhere in the rules does it say either that the artillery unit must have or may not have line of sight with the target for being able to use the ability, making the fact that nothing is written about the matter a non existing issue since it’s not a factor to consider. When this ability is used the “action” goes over to the artillery unit that in turn has its own rules to follow when performing its actions. The rules does say that this ability calls upon an “Indirect shot” from the artillery unit and thereby directing one to follow the artillery rules for indirect fire when resolving the artillery units action.

“Artillery “ rules:
• All weapons with range A are artillery weapons.
• Artillery weapons always have a minimum range of 4 squares.
• The maximum range of an artillery weapon is always unlimited (just like range U).
• When you use an artillery weapon, you must follow the special rules for artillery.
• An artillery weapon can fire in two different ways: a “Direct shot” or an “Indirect shot”.

Artillery - “Direct Fire” rules:
• If the unit that carries an artillery weapon can see its target (it has clear line of sight), it takes a direct shot. When an artillery weapon opens fire with a direct shot, the attack uses the same rules as a normal shooting attack.
• A direct shot costs one action (1 ACTION) for the unit that’s carrying the artillery weapon. So it can be combined with any other action that’s available for that unit (for example moving).

Artillery – “Indirect Fire” rules:
• If the unit that’s carrying the artillery weapon can’t see its target, but another unit with the Artillery Strike ability can see it, you can perform an indirect shot.
• If the artillery does have line of sight, it makes a direct shot instead.
• The indirect shot takes place when the observer is activated, not during the activation of the artillery unit itself!
• The indirect shot automatically uses both of that unit’s actions.

I would like to point out that the first point under the Artillery – “Direct Fire” rules say that if the unit carrying the artillery weapon has clear line of sight it takes a “Direct Shot”, sense it doesn’t say that this does or doesn’t apply if called upon by the “Artillery Strike” ability it does this regardless of how the shot itself was triggered, whether it be by the units own action or by the action of an observer unit using its “Artillery Strike” ability.

Now as I earlier wrote the rules for the “Artillery Strike” calls upon an “Indirect Shot” from the unit carrying the artillery weapon (which I don’t argue). But when reading the rules for Artillery –“Indirect Fire” it is written that if the artillery does have line of sight, it makes a “Direct Shot” instead, which inevitably steers you to follow the rules for Artillery – “Direct Fire”.

When thinking about the scenario where both the “observer” and the “artillery” units would have a clear line of sight and also being at the needed ranges to be able to fire makes me think that this will not happen very often, which in turn makes me draw the conclusion that therefore it wouldn’t get to be an overpowered action.

If you don’t agree with me please explain where and how you think me thought process has went wrong in this matter. I am not so stubborn that I can’t admit that even I am wrong sometimes.

I'll give it one last try but if the Major or Arkangl can't convince him, I dont stand a chance.

Page 3 Operation Cyclone To sum up:

-An artillery weapon can fire in two different ways: a "direct shot" or an "indirect shot".

-If the artillery unit has a clear line of sight to the target, it makes a direct shot. ..... Doesnt say anything about using a observer.

-If an "observer" unit has a clear line of sight to the target, the unit makes an indirect shot. ...

Then on page 4, under INDIRECT FIRE, not INDIRECT or DIRECT FIRE, but just indirect fire. In the third paragraph it states "The indirect fire takes place when the observer is activated" It doesnt say the indirect or direct fire takes place when the observer is activated.

Then below that it has the steps to follow to make an indirect shot (where are the steps to make a direct shot with a observer?)

I think you're really bending the rules there. As you said, the Artillery Strike rules clearly say that it activates the artillery piece to make an Indirect Shot. That's it, black on white, Artillery Strike activates an Indirect Shot. You can't backtrack later on and, once the artillery is activated by Artillery Strike, note that you have LOS and use a Direct Shot instead. Artillery Strike doesn't allow you to do that. If the artillery has LOS is uses a Direct Shot, which is something that quite simply cannot be triggered by Artillery Strike. It uses a Direct Shot on its own actiavtion, as a normal SHOOT action.

Gian - "Now as I earlier wrote the rules for the “Artillery Strike” calls upon an “Indirect Shot” from the unit carrying the artillery weapon (which I don’t argue). But when reading the rules for Artillery –“Indirect Fire” it is written that if the artillery does have line of sight, it makes a “Direct Shot” instead, which inevitably steers you to follow the rules for Artillery – “Direct Fire”."

You are twisting it a little on the rules. Direct and Indirect never mention if you have LOS you make a Direct Shot but if you do not have LOS you make a Indirect Shot.

On page 3 under "To Sum Up" it says

- An artillery weapon can fire in two different ways: a “direct shot” or an “indirect shot.”

- If the artillery unit has a clear line of sight to the target, it makes a direct shot. The shot
succeeds if a is rolled and the unit can choose to make a sustained attack (SHOOT +
SHOOT actions). The unit can also uses its other weapons if it chooses to do so.

- If an “observer” unit has a clear line of sight to the target, the artillery unit makes an
indirect shot. The shot succeeds if a is rolled. An indirect shot costs the artillery unit
both of its actions, so it cannot make a sustained attack. Again, the unit can uses its other
weapons.

This is the only time it is mentions in the rulebook, under a section, what is an indirect and a direct fire at the same time. The rules under Direct Fire only mention direct fire it never mentions indirect fire and viceversa for the indirect fire. Never under Direct Fire does it say if you do not have LOS use the Indirect Rules and never under the Indirect Fire does it say if you have LOS use Direct Fire rules. This means they rules never cross definition. It only says Direct Fire is only this.. and Indirect Fire is only this...

If you can find where it says what you are saying scan rulebook and show us because 4 of us are saying the opposite of what you are saying and we have sited specific rules that back us up.