Dissapointed with Loth, I have re-armed it as per the walker on the box set, I've named it Ludolf.

This card was a bit tricky as there seems to be no real ruling for having a pair of guns, it's just probably to make models balanced or not overly expensive, could you imaging the 88's of Ludwig counting as two seperate weapons! In real life the 88L56 of the Ludwig/Tiger 1 is comparable to the 17pdr, so as there is only one 88 on the Ludolf I've given it the stats of the 17pdr, basically 1 less than the 88's.

The Nebelwerfer is a right pain to get a balance and so have reduced its stats by 1 also. This now gives the Ludolf a ferocious first attack against armour but probably not after, as it now has to spend an action to load, slowing it down or making it unable to call sustained fire, it could be a problem deciding what to do.

The anti-infantry fire is pretty much on par with the total fire power of a Pounder over 2 turns of shooting. I think the Neb should be better against infantry but I can't really justify it having the same effect as a twin Neb.

The best way to tell if a models is costed right or balanced is to ask youreself what 2 mechs you would take to a 16pt fight? Would you always take this, never take it or take it every now and then for a change?

So, would you/wouldn't you take one to a fight?

I'd take the 88 down another die, so it's less powerful than a Pounder. We have one example of what happens when you have twin weapons in the upcoming Lara hero. She has a twin Stg rifle, that does 2 more damage than a regular rifle, so I'd take that as a hint.

Maybe, but an 88 don't sit right with me to be worse than a 17pdr.

Yeah, it might be historically wrong, but then again, twin 88s should be way better than a pounder. I think game balance is more important than factual accuracy.

Yup, but what about the card overall? What is your answer to the question?

You have the same stats as me except i reduce everything by 1 for it being single shot.

Major Mishap said:

I would definitely take a Ludolf to a fight. Why not? It meets all my operational requirements Only thing is, it's not tournament legal BTW, it's a beautiful card you got there

Thanks, no tourney in the UK just me and a mate

I left the anti-infantry value the same or it would be worse than the 17pdr, a smaller calibre gun shouldn't do more damage than a larger one. Thats the good and bad thing about the Dust profiles, the stats are not accurate or consistant BUT they are pretty much spot on for play balance.

The Ludolf weapons should be halved from the weapons on the Ludwig and the Lothar otherwise they are just to strong.

A ludwig has two 8.8cm FPK's and the number of dice represent that. So when you remove one of the weapons it will loose half the dice it is really simple when you think about it.

If you are desperate to keep the number of dice so high that no opponent with a grain of inteligence will want to play against your model then change the profile in another way. Give the weapon a new name and take away the U for range.

The same is true for the Mebelwerfer 42 weapon. If you remove half the weapons you remove half the dice.

If you don't you are after the best of both walkers without willing to pay the price for it.

I know full well that the above will be ignored but after being told of for not standing up for the dignity of Dust Tactics I felt it was my duty to point out what should have been pointed out before any of those cards even had been considered. Be honest your opponents have pointed out the flaws in those cards haven't they.

Florish they described it on BGG that its slightly more shots b/c its still firing at the same target and atleast one will hit the target. Kinda like twinlinked for 40k but without the rerolling.

arkangl said:

So you are now saying that Dust rules are like 40K rules?
Just because something works a certain way in one game system doesn't mean it works the same way in all game systems.

If you are desperate to keep those number of dice the model should be in the region of 6 AP instead of 4.
It is interesting that for a lot of people homemade means that the model must be better than the standard versions.

FlorisH said:

Your remarks are totally incorrect though, thats not how weapons work in Dust unless you think an 88 is far inferior to a 17pdr. The general concensus of opinion is that mechs with large twin weapon only really fire one at a time or there is a +1/+2 bonus to a single weapon, nobody has ever said before that you halve a stat for 2 weapons, and its not that simple - there is no magic formulae, just game balance. This walker has its drawbacks as metioned in the text, I'll play it and see how it performs and if it needs moding down, I'll do so. I also do not like your tone, please keep it civil without insulting, and no, my opponants have not dismissed this profile.

Major Mishap said:

That's an interesting conclusion. Do you have the link for that reference?

Also MM, I'm not sure arguing from a position of reality, with regards the 17 pounder vs the 88, has much merit in a discussion about anything other than a real world comparison of those two weapons. I'm sure you don't need telling that Tiger tanks didnt actually walk, either!

And one final point:

Major Mishap said:

I'm not seeing any draw backs? I'm seeing that you acknowledge that it CAN fire every round, with only two less dice than a Ludwig and a Lothar combined, due to reload being only a single action, but no draw-backs? You do say that it can't shoot+shoot after the first round very easily, but as your argument for why your Ludolf isn't over-powered hinges on your suggestion that in Dust Tactics, double the dice is not double the opportunity, that seems a moot point also.

Supercollider said:

Nope, only by what I have read on forums since I bought the game.

Supercollider said:

It's the only point of reference and comparisson we have to go on.

Supercollider said:

I've drawn upon my experience of the game and knowledge and libary of WW2 tanks and their guns to come up with a stat for this walker and have given detailed explanations of why I have chosen these stats, which so happened to be a similar profile from somebody else. The next step comes in playtesting, if it prooves to powerful (I'm not saying it definately isn't, so please stop citing me saying its not over powered) for its points, I'll make amendments, I've no problem with that.

The stat line for a single 88mm will not change as we all know the 17pdr is not better. Other options will be to possibly make the Neb unable to be reloaded - a one-use weapon, make it less effective against armour or up its points which I don't really want to do. We will see, why not give it a go for some playtest feedback? Actually, I think I'll knock the Neb down by one now and test it tomorrow. Thanks for the feedback.

I made mine when the Lothar first came out. It's only a comparision to 40k rules not the same rules. I am in the process of redoing all my cards and putting out the tournament points system on the card rather than the AP with the new expansion coming out. As for the AP anyways they later came out and said the AP is equal to the Armor not like the Ivan and the Jadgluther where they are off. They said the cards for them were from the one of the Beta rules. I was thinking of making this sucker 50points because of the damage ability.

arkangl said:

That was a big problem having the Ludolf (Ludwig mkII) at the same cost as the Lothar and Ludwig with almost double the dice as those have. the tournament points will enable you to represent its power better. 50 points is a good base to start with. Perhaps you can look at going for something like 51 or 52 points as this means you have to think about the army as a whole when you decide to take it as it will impact on what other units you can take more than a round points cost does.

I stand by my opinion that the number of dice should be halved. This is based on gameplay and has nothing to do with realism. Give it a go using both versions and see what makes for a more entertaining game (for both players).

FlorisH said:

i deeply disagree .Its Still this is alternative History game using history specs for reference. Miniatures need to "feel" right and i expect them to behave similar to historical equ. If all i wont is balance i play chess.

Btw how in your way of thinking you would balace napalm throwers?

1. Question is 2x cannons = double fire rate or double fire power?

and dont forget that X/X represent - penetration, power of payload, rate of fire and accuracy as well

My solution is to arm nebelwerfer with anti infantry payloads and change anti tank line to 1/1 that should balance it in region of 1-10 to existing medium walkers.

So is there a consensus on which card to use for the Ludolf? I would like it to be balanced and fun.

Well I've used mine a ton of times now and it works well and is balanced, but everybody will have there own way of seeing how things should work. The best way is to try them out yourself and see. Has anybody tried out the cards?

I think the big problem here is not that the Ludolf is so overpowered-- it really seems like it-- but that the Luther is so underpowered. 2 8.8cm cannons should have a pretty high accuracy, after all they were originally AA guns. But since this is a Sci-fi setting, and the machines are made possibly by alien technology, I guess anything is possible. The only thing that makes any sense regarding the Luther is that they are using a concept like the twin-linked guns in 40K. Otherwise I would expect 2 8.8cm cannon to be highly accurate and devastating.

My problem with the balance is the actual BALANCE of weight between a Nebelwerfer on one arm and a 8.8cm on the other. That would be my biggest issue. It would make more sense to mount the Nebelwerfer on the roof of the mech, or even the back, and keep the 2 8.8cm cannons, then discard it after it fires.

Sure, I would think that everybody when first picking the game up would assume that the 88 stat line is for one gun only especially when compared to a single 17pdr. But its all about game balance and play, think how many points it would be to have twin weapons firing as they should.

Major Mishap said:

Then why is your Ludolf the same cost but with double the dice?

I'm going to try this one again. The Ludolf is not balanced because it is the same cost as the official Axis walkers but has double the dice. That was my problem from the beginning but instead of addressing that it has been about how realistic are the weapons and what they should, could, would do in the real world.
Make the Ludolf 75% more expensive than the Ludwig and Lothor and I have no problem with the thing.

And for Poyet: The napalm throwers don't need to be balanced as they work fine as they are so I don't see your point.

The Ludwig had both of its guns specifically designed to hit the same spot on a target. That is in the fluff. If you remove one of these guns, you should reduce the ability more than 2 or 3 dice less to represent the change in the balance of the machine from its original design.

I think it makes more sense to put the nebelwerfer on the Luther, either replacing the Kampzange or the 5cm gun. You can make a Ludolf hell against Infantry this way. Any thoughts?

FlorisH said:

Playtesting in about a dozen games over various scenaros has PROOVED that it is balanced in play.